Transformation that Lasts: The Power of the 5 Voices - Steve Cockram | Ep 23

Steve Cockram  
We concluded that big events really work. And when they're done well are amazing. They're highly educational, highly motivational, often inspirational, the very rarely lastingly transformational. And so therefore, one of the things we said was, if we were going to have two words that define what we tried to do was, could we create transformational change that lasted in people's lives with whatever we did? Welcome

Caleb Roth  
to the Stacking Habits podcast with your hosts, David, Matthew and Taylor. Our mission each week is to dig into the habits, rituals and routines of guests who are living life to the fullest. But remember, knowledge without action is worthless. So be sure to take what you hear and put it into practice. turn these words into words in your own life. Without further ado, let's dive in. Well, welcome back to the Stacking Habits podcast. I'm your host, Caleb I'm joined by David and a man living in the future, just by nature of his timezone. We've got Steve Cockram with us. Thanks for coming, Steve, you are the other half of Jeremie, which was our most recent guests. So if you've missed that, head on back to 21, or actually just start with 20 to learn what you can from Steve, and then see if you'd want to go back in time and check out Jeremie's content. But Steve, you are in West London. Is that still accurate? Yes,

Steve Cockram  
I am in West London. And we were four hours I think ahead of VST at the moment, so we're not quite as far ahead as we are normally. Daylight Savings, the joy of is in play right now. So ruining my calendar scheduling. Caleb, nevermind. Well,

Caleb Roth  
we are we're rapidly trying to catch up with you. I don't know about David, David's pretty well traveled. I love going to Europe or Asia and being ahead of my American counterparts. There's something about being ahead and wrapping up the day early and works getting done while you sleep. So I don't know if you feel the same way. But being in the future is a great place to be very American

Steve Cockram  
of you, Caleb, yeah, the only thing ahead of you Americans out I think basically exactly that in history. Everything else either superseded us and gone beyond them afraid, including in our egos. Well, we don't forget we exported cultural imperialism long before you boys started it. So in fact, you You left it I think if I remember right,

Caleb Roth  
well, that is true. But to be fair, you guys have kind of Reformed of your ways and sort of help many countries go back to gaining their independence. Well,

Steve Cockram  
I'm not sure how much of that was deliberate Caleb, but ya know, we're in danger. But then now asking us for money. That's the That's where it will start to unravel a little bit. So yeah, well,

Caleb Roth  
money is a construct. Well, Steve currently lives in West London. Some interesting things from your books as you're an inspirational communicator, serial entrepreneur and confidant to elite leaders around the world. That's a pretty good description, says you are highly skilled at making people think, laugh and take action. That's what we're about here at Stacking Habits. And it says you are an engaging self deprecating storyteller, who uses his disarming British humor to draw in his audiences. So now we're aware we know what your superpower is, you're going to try and bring us in with that humor. But one thing that stood out you your husband to one, father to three, and it also says in your bio that Harewood downs golf course is your spiritual home. So self deprecating humor, British accent golfer, I think we're going to be friends. But tell us tell us a little bit about why Harewood downs matters so much to you.

Steve Cockram  
I think that kind of like most I would say, I'm an American and excellent Britain were British passport calleb. So I'm highly driven. Love work and find it hard sometimes to switch off and like mostly athletes when they were young, graduate the body because so what was once an impact sport becomes racquet sports. And then basically, in middle age, you move to the noncontact sports of cycling, swimming, golfing, and golf is the game you can play forever. I love playing golf. And for me, I have to have something which is powerful enough, that stops me thinking about work. And for five hours on a golf course, with my friends, where none of them want me to be their elite coach, Confidant or mentor, they have no idea what I do, really only that I earn more money than they do. And that basically, I'm very generous with buying them drinks at the end of the round. So it's a place I get to switch off, and it's also a place to get to compete with a bat. The only thing I have left, that doesn't hurt. So shot 72 Yesterday, my handicaps, three. So I can still get it around even at the sprightly old age of 54. So I'm heading to the seniors tour. That's my kind of spiritual home hopefully. Well,

Caleb Roth  
you're known for links style golf over there as well. And you know, the birthplace of golf. I was I was fortunate enough to get up to Scotland two summers ago, and was just blown away even even the mune municipal courses, you know, 30 to 40 pounds to play them were immaculate. And so I was I was very much in awe.

Steve Cockram  
What do you play with Caleb? We'll have to have a game at some point.

Caleb Roth  
Well, we shall I'm I'm right at around a four right now. I did get down to a half. And I was 12 about four years ago. So I've put a lot of time into the game every

Steve Cockram  
every American Over I play usually was on some college program that groove their swing within an inch of its life and they kind of go, I'm off 12 Now and then they hit it like they're off scratch so I'm not paying you for money. That's all I can say, Yeah, we won't

Caleb Roth  
do that. I'm very much a field player. I'm very analytical in life. But we'll get into personality types here. But I'm the same as Jeremie. I'm an ENFP. And I think the feeler has translated over to my golf game as well. Because as much as I like to live up here, my golf swing is very much product of how I feel.

Steve Cockram  
Jeremie has a unique game called Happy golf. He doesn't like playing for real because he loses. So he measures Did he enjoy the whole? No. Does he have more happy faces that sad faces, which that's

Caleb Roth  
like someone who's not very accomplished at something?

Steve Cockram  
Sorry, European. Have you Jeremie. Exactly.

Caleb Roth  
Well, Jeremie, I do have a question. Because the two of you have written several books. We're going to talk today a bit about five voices and how that relates to relational habits. But we Jeremie and I talked about communication code. We talked about five years we had Audrey Wyman is one of our earlier guests. And she's the one that introduced us to giant worldwide. But I do have a question. We we have three hosts on this podcast, which kind of defies conventional wisdom. How does it work writing a book with a with a co author, you guys kind of argue over each other. It is one of you take the lead, like walk us through that process.

Steve Cockram  
We have a clear plan, really, we kind of we get together and do the wireframe of it. The difference with us is we don't write books, because we think we've got to get a might have a good idea. We've worked with tools, lenses with clients for years, and then we graduate. Okay, is it worth creating a book? So it's not like we're trying to come up with new concepts. We're basically seeing thinking books force you to go deeper with what you think you already know. So it's it forces characters. I'm an intp. You know, Jeremie's ENFP. So we're not, we're great conceptually envisioning things, we're not great at landing the plane with all the micro detail. So when we write a book, we brainstorm it together, we wireframe, what goes in it. Jeremie likes writing, I struggle I don't like writing. So Jeremie usually goes first. He sends me a chapter. I add all kinds of comments on it. I like this. I don't like this sort of so Stephen in the story. So Jeremie is the primary driver of the process, I usually then collaborate critique, if you've read the communication codebook. And effectively, when I've done that, it goes back to Jeremie, who adds it in again before it goes to a copy editor. So kudos to Jeremie, he does far more of the hard work than I do on it. I certainly spend quite a lot of time creating the original pieces. So voices, I made up basically I'll tell you more about that later. But that's where the collaboration comes in. We've have complementary superpowers. But there is always creative tension. Whenever we create anything good always say that basically, partnerships when they work well, that should be actually have a healthy tension in. So I would look at a lot of our best content over the years, has actually come out of us wrestling over each other, and what we're going to teach and what goes wrong. And then we codify it. And we say, well, if we have this trouble, then I suspect other people do too. So I always joke and say we've made an absolute wonderful business, out of codifying, codifying our personal struggles and failures, and sharing them with other people who also struggle with them. So you know, giant is a natural home for people like you and others they get Am I getting this, this is me. And the only reason is, we were just brave enough to own I think our own failures and struggles. And so that's where the synergy comes from. We always say, if I just create something, it's good. Or if Jeremie describe some, it's good. When we work in it together and wrestle with the tension. It's a bit like hopefully, the pearls are created under pressure in the shell. So that's why I describe it. But let's make sure Jeremie gets far more kudos for book writing. Because if it was up to me, the probably wouldn't be as many books and with the new AI apps that are coming out at the moment, so there'll be a five voices app out later this year. I wonder whether we'll ever write books again, because it will actually write content for you to your personality in the form that basically you wish to receive it. So I don't know whether we'll write one book and hope everyone reads it. I suspect what will happen in the future is you will choose how you want to engage with specific content. We may still do it, but it isn't going to be I think the way primary people learn. And anyone who's tried to sell lots of books know people don't buy books anymore. Their marketing tools, they get you on podcasts, they also save your IP to make sure that other people can't steal it. But as an economic engine books are not the not the game. They used to be kind of

Caleb Roth  
well and David and I are actual full time booksellers at least I was I've sort of stepped back but David still runs a few million dollar business in Colorado selling books. So that's our backgrounds. We We certainly understand the Amazon side of that game at least. Well, good

Steve Cockram  
luck boys wish you luck in that. When Steve,

Caleb Roth  
it's an interesting concept with AI, are you imagining that you wouldn't write one single book, you would, you would essentially put your framework and then a potential reader would say, Hey, I'm an ENFP, I prefer to learn this way on visual and auditory whatever. And then the AI would actually kind of hyper construct that content for me. Yeah,

Steve Cockram  
that's what's happening right now, there's a minimum viable product that we had in May, it absolutely blows my mind how clever this thing is, because voices you see correlates with the big five, and with Union type. So we've been programming the large language models, how to think like a giant. And then we program it through the lens of how you are wired. So it's bit like having your own coach who knows a year. And actually, you can go, you know, I'd like to do a course on, I know, emotional intelligence, I'd like to do probably seven to eight minutes a day, I'd like it to be a month long. And I'd like it to address these issues. We're actually building those things, almost straight out of the asking the large language models to build it and record it, you can even choose the voice that reads it to you, Caleb,

Caleb Roth  
so are we gonna? Is this going to be the end of humans doing all the teaching? Now?

Steve Cockram  
I don't think so. Because I think there's something about the relational connection, which is, which is different. So why do people read? That's a good question. You know, most people read use to read to learn. So the idea was we read to learn, is that really the way people are going to learn specifically in the future, I'm not sure. But the more AI takes over the IQ functionality, I think the greater the demand, there will be for the EQ, relational intelligence components. So we don't find ourselves ever being out of work, because of things like LinkedIn learning. You know, there's more content out there in the entire world, like now it's ever been. But it doesn't replace the fact that who is going to apply that learning, specifically to your context, to your relational dynamics, Now, not everyone can afford have consultants or coaches working with you as an individual executive team. So what we've done is almost go to the other end of the continuum and go, everybody needs this, a lot of what you're talking about, how do you help people be more aware, self aware, they can be others aware, they can build habits that make a difference. If we can create a way in which people can have their own coach with it, you know, you can add your friends, by the way, and it'll give you coaching tips on the relational dynamics of what you need to be aware of, which is like, you know, all the things that will annoy you about David, and things you can work on together, all of this in one app that will be about I know, 34 bucks for the year. Everyone can play, it won't be the same as me sitting down with you, or sitting down with your team. But I think it will go a long way, particularly for those people in the world where or languages. I'm like an average American that speaks nothing other than my own language. So this will actually translate all of our thinking into any language in the world you want basically. So you imagine the scalability of that versus where we currently are with the limitations of geria mindset. Englishness and he doesn't even speak English properly. So you know?

Caleb Roth  
Well, that sort of answers the question because my understanding of Giant was that it was a consulting group, and that you train coaches and consultants to go out and sort of spread your methodologies and the frameworks that you've created and found to be effective. But in the end of the communication code, it actually said that you are a technology group or a software company. And my thought was, well, that's interesting, because I don't know many consulting groups that are actual software companies, and from our world, being a software company, at least up until a year or two ago, also kind of meant higher margins and multiples. So depending on what your aim is for the company, that that's probably a good upper level.

Steve Cockram  
So what happened was, is we started, like most consulting groups selling time for money, and taking a margin from the pod deliver working on a that creates a very large turnover, but a relatively small EBIT, da and an equivalent valuation. What we also found was trying to persuade Americans to do exactly what we were asking them to do was a thankless task. So they all wanted to do it in their own way, innovate and make it their own. So we moved four years ago, to say, why don't we simply license intellectual property? And why don't we actually licensed create the capacity for independent coaches consultants, to effectively have a technology platform that supports their work? So all of a sudden, we're helping coaches move into the digital world, where actually direct directed and recurring revenue should be part of everyone's thinking. Because you're only selling time for money the moment you stop selling your time you have no money. So now giant, I would say that Jeremie and I are still giants were giants. Number one customers as clients, because we still run our own consulting business, but clients only pay giant now it's $299 a month, and we take a margin on the technology solutions they sell, and the internal training. So we've become a SAS consulting business, probably the first one that's actually managed to do this, we have a lot smaller turnover, but a lot higher margin on that turnover, and therefore a multiple valuation rather than a EBIT our valuation. So from that point of view, it's much more stable, we have only probably about 1000, independent coaches consultants around the world who use everything. And one of them leaves, it's not cataclysmic, when our number one client, who was in a 15% of our personal revenue leaves, that's usually quite a big deal. So we are individuals as consultants, and I guess, Jeremie and I and others will always do that. But actually, the core business is much more stable. Because in a sense, it's a recurring revenue play. It's

David Chung  
also really cool at just hearing you talk about the transformation that giants gone through. It's, it's also really interesting, because you've taken this really challenging part of a consulting business, which is distribution, right, in order to address a larger market, you need to hire more staff in order to do that. And you really shifted the onus of distribution on to other parties who will be motivated. And so really, really interesting model that's, that's really cool to hear about, we've got

Steve Cockram  
David, about 1000. Some of them are doing over a million a year in revenue, but they still only pay us 299 A month and a percentage of what's on the platform. So we could if we were going to be really grandiose go, let's assume the average consultants doing 100,000 revenue a year, giant could conceivably $100 million consulting business. But if you think maybe I don't know, five, Simpson, EBIT, ah, you've got, say, five to 7 million, with a multiple and maybe four or five. So that's what you know, 30 million, maybe, actually, when you're a six, 7 million SaaS, turnover, and a multiple, it's worth more than double that, yet, the turnover is a fraction. So and it's more stable. And here's the great thing, all of our client, all of our guides love it, because it's an American model is an entrepreneurial model, which means, hey, you don't get penalized for being hugely successful at what you do. And the other big thing is, because the technology, we have our own, you know, dev team, who build all the constant building upgrades, the platform and apps and all kinds of things. Nobody in their right mind, no independent consultant can ever afford to run their own multimillion dollar tech company, they basically get 40% of the revenue that goes through the platform with their clients. So if you think about it, that's a great deal for them. But it's also it works well for giants, because, in a sense, we're making a margin on everything we sell. So we effectively have a sales team that pays us to sell our product, which is again, far more intelligent than where we started this game 11 years ago. So mostly, it's been learned, as I said, through getting it wrong and listening to younger people in our team, let's be clear about that. The real, the real expertise is not in my generation, when it comes to SAS and tech and all those things. I'm just Well, hopefully, we're humble enough to give space to put the people in the right places in the right seats. And then Jeremie and I get to go and talk about everything we do. And everyone thinks we're really clever. So I'm hoping it does some value. But people think we're people writing case studies on us. Now again, you're the first consulting group that's become Sasural. In the leadership space, when everyone else is still trying to sell time for money, you're going, Are we selling per hour? Are we selling per product? And we're going? No, we're just making our tools available to the right people in the right way. So there you go. Thanks for letting me do a big plug boys for giant. And if there's anyone out there, who is a coach consultant wants to join their toolkit, then find this in the show notes.

Caleb Roth  
It's, it's fascinating look in insights into the business model there. So we definitely appreciate that we understand the value of SAS, we sold a monthly tool to our customers as well. And we had customers that were mom and pop that Did you know, a few 100 to a few $1,000 a month and we had, you know, enterprise customers that were doing anywhere from half a million to a million a month, and they paid the same price. So that's on one hand, it's up to us to figure out how to capture more value. But ultimately, if we're providing value and you know, people are using that to make money, then they're going to continue so we we understand that value. One thing that stood out to me Steve, it kind of showed up twice is is that humility and the ability to kind of open your kimono, both you and Jeremie and being honest about your struggles, and he shared the story when he flew over and wanted to celebrate and you thought he was there to critique and collaborate and just saw that the mist that happened and then the two of you had the self awareness to go away to say Again, we literally are coaches and consultants and we train tons of people. And we're still not getting it right. So let's just back up what happens? What was the tendencies that showed up. And so as I read your two books, and I read both these books prior to coming up the communication code and five voices, there's a couple of themes that come out. One, you both seem hell bent, Heaven bent, I'm not quite sure what the phrase is, but you're hell bent on providing freedom and liberating others. So I'd really love to dive into that I didn't get a chance to ask Jeremie that. And then you're very focused on the self awareness, understanding your tendencies, and then you build very logical, clear frameworks to help people improve and transform. So first question, let's break that apart. What is it about setting people free? That drives the two of you?

Steve Cockram  
It's great question. I mean, I still remember, sat in a stately home where our two families lived together for a year, but 11 years ago, now, both of us had come to the end of what we were doing. And we were dreaming about what we would do next. And both bases are people of faith. And we kind of said, Look, you know, God, if you gave us 20 more years, what would we most love to do? Who would we most love to do with? And what have we learned in the previous 40 odd years that we are not gonna repeat? I remember Jeremie saying that I never want to have to do work. And I don't want to do with people. I don't want to work for to pay someone else's school fees and mortgages. Obviously, he was coming out with pretty brew season in that process. Yeah. But we said that he was in the big event space, really. And he said, We concluded that big events really work. And when they're done well are amazing. They're highly educational, highly motivational, often inspirational, the very rarely lastingly. Transformational. And so therefore, one of the things we said was, if we were going to have two words that define what we tried to do is, could we create transformational change that lasted in people's lives with whatever we did? So that was one piece, I guess I'd been doing some of that in a more boutique consulting group before that, as such as if we want to take on something no one's ever done before. Could we design the transformational experience that lasts for leaders with a way that they're equipped to multiply that transformation into their people, their families, their teams or organizations without the need for expensive consultancy? So no consultant in their right mind Caleb would ever set out with that intention, because they quite like the symbiotic dependence of a parasite, while

Caleb Roth  
you're literally running yourself out of a job if you do your job correctly, right?

Steve Cockram  
But but yes and no. So could we create transformation. So we really want people to have the freedom to make better choices in the way they live their lives, I guess we're quite big picture, visionaries would love the world to be a better place, will often say the world doesn't need more leaders, it needs better leaders. And one of our conclusions is most leaders are unconsciously incompetent. They don't understand why it doesn't work. And they don't really have tools that are simple enough to help them go spend a lot of money and go into your Harvard MBA or whatever it might be. I joke and say I meet a lot of people who are allegedly allegedly Masters of Business Administration. But how awful at Business Administration, because they don't get the people part. And business really, increasingly, is people. So for us, it's like going, we would love to see healthier marriages, healthier families, healthier teams, healthier organizations, because we inherently believe that when people can see themselves and they see other people, they at least then have the choice about how they relate, and how they create the environment where others can be at their best. So you know, the industrial world, you could hire very, very intellectually clever people with great brains and sell their brainpower out per hour. The digital world is so complex, no one individual can ever know all the information to solve a problem anymore. So learning how to create teams that harness superpowers to solve complex problems, which actually have to transcend age. Because believe it or not, you guys are far better in the digital world than I am. I'm at best a mudblood you guys are pureblood. So you were born in it. I've never known any different for Harry Potter fans out there. So in a sense, leadership has become far more complicated, but far more fun. As you create the environment where the best people are not all your age anymore. And actually some of the most intelligent and critically, from a wiring point of view. Actually, different personalities have different superpowers. And those superpowers when harnessed together create performance and outcomes way way beyond what any even the most talented would be. So now I sound like an evangelist. Kalypso forgive me, but that's kind of the passion that lies behind it of go and make different mistakes than the ones we've already made. And lastly, and then I'll shut up, we realized to create that transformation and multiplication potential, all of the tools that we created had to be designed for educated 13 year olds, because we concluded that if an educated 13 year old can understand it, use it and teach it to their friends, then it could scale, because most execs and most senior leaves at the moment are utterly overwhelmed with the tsunami, basically, of information and demand, which is placed on them in a 30 365 24/7 world. So that was our learning that the New World was visual. It wasn't to do with books anymore, or rote learning. Things had to be visual. And they had to be simple without being simplistic. And that is not always as easy. It sounds like it was either a Winston Churchill or somebody. So I'm really sorry, I wrote you a long letter. I didn't have time to write short one. So that's sometimes people look at the tools and go, that's really simple. I go, Yeah, it is. But it's not simplistic, because there's a pretty deep well that you can go down if you want to.

Caleb Roth  
Yeah, well, it's simple in terms of easy to grasp is key, because like you said, there is a tsunami of information, but universal truths and principles and elements that are actually going to resonate and reflect reality, if we want to call it that. Those tools then can sit with you. That's why That's what I love about a framework. And it's something that you've used in your organization, you've stressed tested, you sort of put it to test in the real world and then said, Okay, we had this theory, it's actually mapping out in the real world, and it's having an impact, right? Our whole goal on the podcast is to interview and it showed up exactly in your book. So we really share a similar wavelength. We want to interview intentional people that are having an impact in the world. And usually, the way that that happens is through habits, literally from like the introduction to five voices says the exact same thing. It says the intentional change that happens in you first, will impact all those around you. So I don't know where we borrowed that thought from but it popped up. You you continually talk about self awareness and tendencies. So when you when you say our goal is to impact change, and to have people change their behavior, is it usually knowledge that is lacking? Is it care and the desire that's lacking? How do you get someone to the point where they're ready to change? So

Steve Cockram  
it was a great question. I would say that basically, we often hold up mirrors, and lenses to people. So the mirror is the question, or do you know what it's like to be on the other side of you? A lot of these don't know, because they don't really create a safe environment where they can ask and they don't ask at home either. So sometimes using humor and competence, people will listen to me tell them something, they won't listen to other people. Because an English accent goes a long way in America. And usually me telling stories about my foolishness and failure, opens the door to go, Oh, I'm that person. In that scenario. If I was incompetent, and not successful, they wouldn't listen to me that because they look at you and go, actually, you're relatively intelligent, you're successful in what you do. And a lot of they go, Oh, I can relate to this. And it's okay, for me to be vulnerable. So unconscious incompetence, I would say is the default position. And most people, when they're dealing with someone who's like them, it just tends to work. And that it's when they're trying to deal with people who are different to them, they usually assume that well, I'll do for you what I want for me. So that's where I think people start. If you hold up the lens, most of the people Caleb, who cause the most damage, and the most hurt in other people's lives, without knowing it are also the ones who strive to be the most competent. And when they are given a chance to learn and grow. They grasp it with literally two hands. Whenever I mean, when I'm working with sort of CEOs or founders, there's always a moment when they go, Steve, I've got a problem. And I'm like, Oh, go on, tell me about it. And they'll go, well, it's Caleb, he's 33 years old. He's an absolute rock star, his team wins everything. You know, he's absolutely performer, and he's desperate to be promoted. But none of his peers want him to be their boss. And I'm going, Okay, I specialize in helping pioneers of this nature. And so I asked him if he'd like an hour specialist coaching with me, and the corresponding uh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I literally sit down and say, Look, this error is going to change your life if you're humble enough to accept it. But you won't like it because somebody will be unpalatable. Are you up for it? And they're like, Yeah, I'll please, because it's almost cruel. I said, I'm going to help you be more competent and fulfill your potential and make breakthroughs in your career you would never make any other way. I mean, literally, at that point, they're like ready to buy whatever I'm selling. I said, get your pen out. You're gonna write this down. For words to change your life. No one likes you. And of course, when they buy time They've written down slowly, as everyone knows you're the most competent person in the organization. But you're still competing to prove you're competent with your peers. When everyone knows you're the most competent, what they want to know is, are you prepared to use your competence to help other people, when the moment that happens, you'll be amazed, you'll be promoted. Everybody will be grateful to work with you. And you may have to here's the keywords to pioneers out there, you may occasionally have to choose to lose the battle to win the war. Because if you're the one who's competing, always with the internal world, people are always suspicious of your motivations. So there's an example Kellaway, then the main, I still get emails and calls from the people I've done that to over the years ago, I've never forgotten it. I've just been promoted again. I've made it my life's work now to learn how to enable and empower the people to be their best. I learned I win even more, because I've kept winning still important. I win even more when I enable more people to win. And for me, that's the that's the kind of leadership skill, we talk a lot about that the Sherpa and climbing Everest Sherpas never measure how many times they've climbed Everest, but they do keep a record of how many people they've helped Summit. And it's like, that was a really powerful thing. In our other book, by the way, hundreds leader, were actually I say to people, be a Sherpa. And you'll never be able to work. Don't measure how much you've succeeded measure how many people have gone on to do things internally and externally in your company or organization that they would never have been able to do without you. Choosing to be the one that went ahead of them laid the rope stop falling down the crevices, carried the pack when you need it and cheered for them when they got to the top. So they go long answer again to a short question. But forgive me to Steve,

David Chung  
correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like through that hour long session. And really, this framework is really redefining what winning looks like for these different individuals. So as opposed to success looking like you being on top of the mountain, redefining it as how many people have you helped reached the top of that mountain? How, how do you get these people to sort of except that redefinition.

Steve Cockram  
So I think inherently, when you're dealing with empirical data, ie, have you reached the limit in where you are in your career, or actually in what you're building, I think most people see people who are ahead of them, who have succeeded more than they have, and are humble enough to offer whatever was life saving, so that you don't have to make any changes, you can come back and have another go in 10 years, or you can be wise enough to go. There may be something in there, why don't you go and ask some of your peers whether this is true. So fundamentally, David, it's like, I love the idea you redefine winning, because here's the thing, those of us who love to win, don't become less competitive. It's not that I would love not to play football, soccer, or rugby, or whatever the stuff I played when I was younger, but I had to re create What does winning looks like. And you'll find that a lot of elite sportsmen end up in business, because at least you can compete. It's an intellectual game with a scorecard at the bottom, and you know, whether you've won or lost, but when you realize that actually the people who I would say have the greatest influence, they're often the leaders, people choose to follow, not because they have to follow. And I still think, you know, you can be highly successful without necessarily being a nice person in financial terms. But I'm always like, you know, Steve Jobs has got to be one of the most genius people I've ever read about. But if you read his autobiography, there were flaws in his character, in the way he treated his staff and his daughter in it, you just go like, Why? Why would you not grow the whole package? So for me, what impresses me isn't so much, you know, how much have you made, because to be honest, you can make money by being a dictator. Vladimir Putin is one of the wealthiest people in the world, but I wouldn't hold him up as an example of the type of leader I would wish to follow. So usually leadership is a combination of humility, competence, and to your point, defining success in the thing that makes the biggest difference for the future. And that isn't what a you personally achieve. It's creating the culture, the environment, the atmosphere, where others thrive, and that's where having tools so an intent is not enough and intent with a toolkit and lenses. So, you know, you may be young enough to remember the matrix but there's a moment when you begin to understand that human behavior is under lovably predictable. That's been my study of the last 23 years. Why do human beings behave the way they do? I can literally see the green letters and the numbers coming down. As you watch people interact in other human relationships. Well, you know, I was a teacher years ago. So I always go, if I can learn new things, can I codify it, so that it can be multiplied. So there are, you know, there are a lot of people, I've taught my Jedi mind trick skills to in relation to why people behave the way they do. But in the end, you still have to take that self awareness and others awareness, you can't just read about it, you've actually got to practice. Because new skills take time. They take and they take hard work. So you know, in the end, you can only you can only hold the mirror up and provide the lenses for leaders to look at the world differently. You can't actually force them to make that change. But if they're hungry enough, and they want to make a difference, I believe we've created a way in which they can actually make massive breakthroughs, not just at work. By the way, most leaders have huge positional power at work, they get away with a lot more work than they do at home. At home, you try exercising positional power, and treating your spouse like your EA, that doesn't usually go well. So I would say that most leaders, you hire us, the presenting issues always in their team, because they want the team performance to grow three years on, I think that CEOs founders, I still work with biggest impact has usually been in their marriage and with their kids, because that's the one that is actually harder to do. Because we don't just yet to use our overpowering intellectual genius to force our opinions. Or if you do, it usually doesn't go well, in my experience. Well,

Caleb Roth  
I think one of the beauties of doing this series on relationships is that relationships are the ultimate transferable skill, especially as men we like to think of work as a separate bucket and family and home. And I recently got remarried, we picked up a puppy and my 12 year old daughter has noted that I think you love the puppy more than mom. I said, No, it's just a different part of me to love the puppy. It's a different heart, different love, you know, cows have multiple stomachs. Well, we just welcomed a baby girl into the world a month ago, Valentine's Day, and it's the same thing all over again, it's a different love. And so I think the relational skills kind of interweave and they it's not just work, it's not just home, it's not just friends, it's Can you be a whole complete person. And I think that does start with the self awareness that you you've kind of mentioned here, as we I do want to get into the actual framework. So we've kind of hinted at this framework, but I believe that started with MBTI. And that gets a little confusing. There's 16 different permutations that are involved there. You've sort of simplified that down, you've taken 16 unique blends, and broken them down to five. So that's the that's the codification here. Can you walk us through those five voices, and then what that means for relationships and communicating?

Steve Cockram  
So So you know, in a sense, whether it's MBTI, or big five that comes out the same way, but nobody can ever remember? You know, I'm an ISTJ. I'm out what am I really, so we try to work out, remember educate, 13 year old, we broken down into five foundational voices you speak or five, but one is usually more foundational to how the others heard. So nurturers are the champions of relational harmony, values, relationships, their natural team players, their people, people, they ask practical, detailed questions, you know, they oil the wheels of relationship inside families and teams. And occasionally, their challenges sometimes bringing challenges difficult because it might affect relational harmony. And they all have impostor syndrome. Everyone else sees them as consummate, professional, loyal team player, highly skilled, incredibly, great team player, they see the imperfection, not the perfection, 43% of people speak nurturers their first voice, and, and 70% of those are women. So there's a lot of nurtures in our world, thank the Lord. That's what the foundational voice brings creative is the second voice, we look at the credits of the champions of innovation, future ideation, they're there think outside the box more than any other of the voices. They're the conceptual architects, they live towards the future. They're always exploring what could be, don't tend to be the best that necessarily all the implementation in the present highly, highly strong social conscience as well, with creatives and what we say every creative struggles with three C's. So they struggle with communication. They think they've been clearer than they actually were. They struggle with celebration, because it's never quite as perfect in the real world as when they conceptually dreamed it up in their minds. And if 90% Everyone else is ready to party, the creative can often struggle because it's not all they hoped it would be, and completion, which is creatives very good at visioning things they often struggle to do that all the yards to bring the details to actual reality. Which is why the NIC team, but they are how they have a genius spark in them. And as we move towards a world that no one has been to before, the creative see opportunities and they see dangers long before any of the other voices do. Very, very valuable to teams. Only 9% of people speak creative as their first voice, guardians. Guardians you will hear guardians are the champions of due diligence, stewardship of resources, truth and making things run on rails. So guardians ask difficult questions. A lot of entrepreneurial visionary leaders don't like guardians because it feels like they're pouring cold water all over. They're brilliant ideas. But the guardians are probably the most difficult role to play in a team. But they're also the most valuable, because they save a vast amount of time, money and effort and getting things wrong. So guardians will proceed truth, even if it's costly to themselves, they are amazing at project management. Once they've agreed something to deliver on time on budget, they're never late, and they would rather die usually than fail what they promised the team, you'll always find that as the project deadline gets nearer, the blinkers go on, everything is not mission critical, goes out the window eating, sleeping, being nice to people, the Guardians steward resources, they spend every dollar pound or euro as if it was their own, because they inherently know the tradition of all the people who've made sacrifices to make sure that we have the opportunity now for growth and expansion. So guardians guard the deposit the past. So as we move to the future, we don't throw things out that we didn't need to. They love vision. But they love vision, but they want to make sure it's going to be safe. They love pilot projects, which again, feels like slow down to every pioneer I know. But ultimately what they do is they have to be careful. They don't sometimes they can be right and wrong at the same time. They can be right in the question they asked they can be wrong in the tone and aggression with which they ask the question. So guardians have to work at their tone and tack 30% of the world speak gone into first voice and 70% of them are male. So we often say invoices in the average team in the average organization on the average day 82% of people do not feel truly heard, valued and appreciated, the nurturers, the craziest and the guardians are at 2% of the population. But very rarely do they feel they've been truly heard, valued and appreciated. So the next two are often the ones that are in more of the leadership roles statistically

Caleb Roth  
and steamed. That's partly because their voices are quieter relative to these other two you're about to share. Absolutely,

Steve Cockram  
absolutely. And in a sense, both the nurturers and the Guardians particularly are very present orientated, detail focused. And the commodity that most people value most in leadership is vision, seeing a future that doesn't exist and plodding towards it. So I have senses. For those who speak MBTI Gan is a nurturers, who are amazing leaders, amazing leaders, so everyone can do everything. But statistically you will not find them represented in senior leadership of organizations on those percentages. Connectors are the champions of relational networks, communication, messaging, and basically love translating, product and opportunity. So connectors at their best sit at the intersection between the organization and the marketplace. They love going out and testing what works, what doesn't work, if they found a product they love. It doesn't mean the product will get sold unless there are connectors who go and work out. How do we connect this to people. They maintain vast numbers of relationships in a way that's so valuable for the world we live in today. And they love as it were using their connecting skills to draw people in to the things they're passionate about. Connectors look like great salesmen, but they hate that term, because connectors are never selling anything for a target. That they're constantly scanning the external world for the ideas, the opportunities and the people that they can connect in a way that makes people's lives better and more fulfilled. So cut the connector in half. They're always asking, How do I help people fulfill their potential, and ultimately, the connector fulfills their potential as they help others be the best that they can be. Connectors are people pleasers. So sometimes they love people and they love people to love them. So they sometimes struggle to bring challenge. Most connectors have an advanced PhD in hinting her their displeasure. And then being very upset when people didn't understand what it was they were actually saying. And for connectors, they have to be careful because when we when somebody rejects the idea, or says I'm not sure we're going to do it now, for a connector. It's very personal. There Like sensitive people, because they wouldn't be volunteering the idea to the team if they weren't absolutely convinced it was the right thing to do. So learning how to allow the others to do the due diligence is often a growth opportunity. Then lastly, an 11% of the world's speak connectors, their first voice. And then lastly, but by no means least, in their own humble opinion comes loving cuddly pioneer, who actually is the champion of strategic vision, alignment of people, systems and resources to deliver complex ultimate wins. Pioneers are like military chess players, they love taking on the task and the challenges that often other people think are very, very difficult. And connect and a Pioneer is always looking for scalability. How do I have the biggest influence possible? If I can make this work in Oklahoma? Could it go statewide? Could it go nationally? Could it go globally? Could it go intergalactically? Could we open a franchise on Mars and Venus in 2030 30 If every projection goes forward, so pioneers are incredibly resilient people, they love to work, you never have to teach a pioneer how to be to work sorry, you often have to teach them how to be a human being rather than a human doing. And pioneers often are so compelling in the way they share their strategic thinking. They're often quite hard to argue with. And that's one of the growth opportunities for them is pioneers should go last in every team conversation rather than go, I've already decided what the answer is, let's work out how we're going to implement it. If they hear every other voice, it's amazing. Nobody minds the making a final decision people quite like mature pioneers leading. But immature pioneers are always in a hurry and don't really want to listen to anyone who won't fight with them, which is actually quite difficult for most other voices apart from pioneers. So a healthy Pioneer is amazing. And unhealthy. Pioneer does a lot of damage to them and to other people, because they're always always going to be close to the top on the IQ test scores and usually have an inherent belief that they were destined to make a dent for good in the world. So everyone has an 7% kind of speak pioneer. Everyone has a voice order. So I am a pioneer connector, creative Guardian nurturer, the ones at the bottom, the bottom two are the ones I find most difficult. But it doesn't mean I can't use them. And it doesn't mean I can't learn from them. But I can create an environment where if I can create an environment where my bottom two voices feel heard, valued, appreciated. I'm going to lead way more effectively for some of that you as an ENFP. You will be a connector connector, creative pioneer nurturer guardian, same bottom voices just so if you find the nurturers and the Guardians 73% of the world, actually love working for you. Because your consistency, discipline, and willing to listen to the critique and challenge. Your influence goes to another level. But none of those are default tendencies. I'm afraid we have to own our weakness, create environments where others can be part of it. So you imagine a team where everyone gets to share their superpowers? What happens to the performance of that team? What happens to the retention of that team? The moment each voice feels wow, I bring something this is awesome. Like

David Chung  
we can have multiple episodes just talking about all the different types of people you run across you, kid.

Caleb Roth  
And Steve, you we've heard of The Pareto principle I read in the book here, you've got something that you've applied your name to the Cockram principle and that sort of gives a guideline in terms of where to spend your time with your dominant or non dominant voices. Can you explain what that is and how that shows up? In the real world?

Steve Cockram  
Being a true Campbell pioneer, Caleb, I decided Pareto could have a law then so could I guess the 70/30 principle. If you can spend 70% of your time doing the things that you are naturally gifted to do. For me, that will be pioneer and connector. I can do pioneer connect to stuff all day every day. I love it. I might get physically tired, but I never get emotionally or work tied. On the other hand, the 30% is as opposed to you know Strength Finders who said well outsource your weakness will get other people to do the things you're no good at. hiring me as I don't think that's necessarily healthy for for character development. 70/30 we found is about the right balance which keeps the leader humble and growing. So for me, I can spend 30% of my time doing the more Guardian nurturer detail people carrying stuff. I always find it best is conscious competence. It's always tiring for me to do it. The 70/30 We found is about the perfect balance that causes character growth, as well as skills growth and the roundedness ability to be able to empathize and connect with all the people who are around you, particularly for me and you where 73% of people are represented by the two voices I struggle most with so I often ask people, you know, if you think you've your life at the moment, what's the balance. And conference law says this, if you are 50/50 or below, you only have a year, before you will end up doing a job that you don't really want to do. And you'll start to find outlets outside of your work world to create it. No amount of come on TV, you can do this. After a year of being 40/60 or 30/70. You eventually run out of grace and energy for what you're doing. So one of the tasks of leisure we often say is to go, how do you keep working at helping your people be 70/30? Not 100? Zero? We're not talking about idealized, perfect worlds. For millennials. We're talking about the realities of going, how do we try and create the right roles, the right responsibilities and growth opportunities, where on average, you'll be 70/30 in what you do now, small children calleb throwing, you know, is a whole of our life, you'd be amazed how much nurturing you will be doing right now. And how much Guardian detail because it's very hard to be entrepreneurial with small children. So if you think the whole balance is work and home, so therefore, we're dealing with what you said earlier, that more holistic understanding of, you know, what is it that makes leaders human, because being a human being is often a challenge for people like me, rather than being a human doing, and then realize I get to the end of my life, and I've been climbing the wrong ladder. It's a

Caleb Roth  
good call by Lee Iacocca said, I worked hard climb the climb the mountain of success, and I succeeded, I got to the top. And then I looked around and realized, climb the wrong thing, mountain. So it's something that's haunting and has always been there. Well, Steve, I'd love to keep digging. I know, we do have a hard stop here. And I want to be respectful of your time. But thank you for coming on for sharing this principle with us. I do have one quick practical question. David and I are both connectors. That would be our foundational voice. In our previous company, I was the de facto CEO leader. I've asked David to be the CEO. Next, because I be as a connector, I do like to let a pioneer sort of set some of the direction. Since both of us are connectors, do we need to go find a pioneer or creative to to sort of lead out front or can we do it effectively from where we are,

Steve Cockram  
you can do it, you can definitely do it. Because in a sense, not every leader can, every personality can play every role. What I would say Caleb is that if the two of you are going to lead it, and it's going to be a larger company with a few more employees in it, I would look to find the CFO or a president or somebody who can be the kind of in many ways that kind of spring, you know, the buffer zone. Because even when you think you are being consistent, and metronomic and disciplined in how you communicate how you lead, it isn't quite as like that as you think it is. Me too. So finding somebody who loves the vision loves working with you can translate your ideas and then allow them to filter into the company at the speed that other people can engage with them usually is the way forward. So the more entrepreneurial and visionary the leader, usually the more important the integrator for us the attraction language, somebody who can be the, in many ways the air traffic control that makes sure the trains run on time, and make sure that people are cared for. And that's the discipline usually of what we'd say is putting the right people in the right seats on the bus. So you play in your lane, rather than trying to be everything to everybody. Again, there's tools that help that process and lots of lenses in the because there's been our struggle, you know, and that's where, you know, you can pass the baton of Leadership Without abdicating the founder responsibility of leadership. Sure,

Caleb Roth  
that's something good to keep in mind as we try to build the team. Well, I will leave it here and one of your wishes or prayers at the end of the book, I'll just finish with this. It's sort of a good conclusion feels like a church service. But it says we hope that there are several areas in this book that spark some recognition of changes you can make to begin your own transformation chain reaction, you talk a lot about that ripple effect. This is how the process for Changing your world for the better begins. You are the instigator. So with this framework with some of the other ones mentions. Remember that as you're trying to change habits or impact the world, it always starts with yourself, that ripple effect will go elsewhere. Steve, if someone is more curious, and we've already given a big pitch for giant worldwide, we'll link to that. Where else can they find you or your team or COMM For more resources?

Steve Cockram  
Well find me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to talk to you, Steve, Steve Cockram, you'll find me there or giant worldwide.com is a place where you can find out more about us. But yeah, reach out personally, my email is Steve at giant worldwide.com. If you're listening and you've been interested, that's my personal one that won't go through any EA that will come straight to me. So if people are good enough to have me on their podcast, Caleb, that's the most direct private route to me. You will get my response. If any of this is touched. You got questions on it. That's phenomenal. Well,

Caleb Roth  
Steve, we do thank you for your time. Thanks for joining us from the future and we'll we'll let you go Back to your regularly scheduled program ledger

Steve Cockram  
guys let me submit you both keep up the great work.