The Art of the Ask - Nathan Harris | Ep 20

Caleb Roth  
Well, Nathan, thanks for being here. This is going to be, we'd have done a few Live episodes, this would be a real one in the flesh at my alma mater area. So Nathan Harris, welcome to the show. This is episode 20. Hard to believe we're 20 weeks in of the Stacking Habits pod. And you are our very first guest in the relationship series. So thank you for being here. Welcome. Thank

Nathan Harris  
thank you for inviting me. I'm excited to be on here to talk about relationships and tell you all the things not to do. Yes, when developing relationships. And we will learn on

Caleb Roth  
both sides of the equation. We are just drinking regular coffee, I asked him before we started if it was good coffee, and he just said it's tough. So if you see me cringing as i That's why what Nathan, you and I become friends over the last probably two years, you've been working here two years now. And I want to set up a little bit of a dichotomy between your interaction with people in relationships, and our next guest. So both of them are local gentleman, we're going to be having rich on next episode 21 Rich's job is unique. He actually runs a nonprofit, his job is to give money away, you are a little bit on the opposite end of that. So why don't you tell us a little bit about what your role is and how you do the opposite of money?

Nathan Harris  
Yeah, I love talking about this. So my title is vice president of advancement, and I love the title advancement because it encompasses a lot more than just philanthropy. You know, we're working in alumni. We're doing, you know, events, we're kind of across the board. But a large part of what we do is, is fundraising. But I love the title advancement because most people don't know what that is. So you know, I get it. Yeah.

Caleb Roth  
What are you advancing? Yeah,

Nathan Harris  
the mission of the institution. And that's what we're advancing. And in order to do that, and in order to do that, we have to have money. But what I love about the title is, you know, our guests, preach at churches, you know, speak at different events. And I always say, you know, the Vice President advancement, our work in our advancement office, and people always go, well, that's really interesting. What is advancement? And I say, I do fundraising, and then immediately the temperature of the room changes. And you know, I usually make the joke, you know, I say, I'm in fundraising. And then you hear the collective groan of wallets being clenched, and purses being tightened, because it's like, well, here's the, here's the money guy. But there's really an important aspect of what we're doing. It's not just asking for money, it's asking people to partner with us in a mission that we believe in. So yeah, we don't give money, we happily receive money.

Caleb Roth  
So there, you already mentioned it. When you come into a room, people know usually why you're there. You're setting up a meeting on behalf of Grace College, I know that you're going to be sharing some kind of a building project. Yep, some, some some project that's going on. So I'm curious, how do you navigate that? So we'll, we'll get into some like habits and relationships. But if most people are on defensive, and I, I am way guilty of this, when I know someone has an angle, I'm always trying to like, Alright, what's the angle? Let's just say it, and then we talk? Yeah. So how have you learned in your vast years of experience to just sort of navigate that if you have someone that's a little more hostile?

Nathan Harris  
Yeah. Well, I've learned through many, many, many mistakes over the years. But particularly in my role, what I found to be the most helpful is one you've already said, when I email or call someone and ask to schedule a meeting, they know exactly what I do. If they're, you know, we always joke with staff when we're training new development, folks, if somebody's willing to sit down with you take that as a good sign. Like if someone's willing to have a meeting with you, they know what you're about. But for me, clarity, in expectations of a meeting are the most helpful thing. Like I never like to leave somebody off in the dark. And they're thinking, Well, what is what is anything going to talk to me about? I will almost always all I should say almost, I always include that in my email correspondences or phone calls of, here's what I would like to do in our meeting. And a lot of times, it's I mean, you've probably had this for, you know, reach out to alumni and say, I have no agenda. I just want to get together with you. I want to share about what's going on. That way, people are disarmed in a lot of ways and they go okay, this is what it's about. Or if I am going to talk about a specific project that will usually say, I want to gauge your interest in this project in partnering with us. So clarity, for me, especially in fundraising is of utmost importance. Because you're setting people up to be able to know what you're doing. You're you're not creating that hostile environment where you're going, Okay, what did you know, what did they want to what do they want to talk about? They're going to be asking you for something well, you you'll know before we before we get in the room, and

Caleb Roth  
as we set up here in your office, so we've got all the beautiful books everywhere. As a former bookseller, I am seeing dollar signs. I may need to check the inventory on the way Oh,

Nathan Harris  
I know what they're missing clarity.

Caleb Roth  
Have you read Shane Parrish? No, I haven't. Okay, so that's another one to add to the list. As we're looking around the office just setting up the cameras here I noticed that we share a lot of the similar interests Cal Newport. I see raving fans traction is there yet we've mentioned tracking and six episodes. I need phenomenal book you need to go back and reread it. Yeah, David's been preaching the trashing gospel. Yeah, so anyway, Shane Parrish talks a lot about clarity. Tony Robbins says very similar things if you are in a good state yourself. If you have clarity about what you're trying to do, then a lot of times that that helps in the interactions as well. One thing I am curious about the the process of asking for money or building those relationships, a lot of it is transactional by nature. So how have you found a way to bridge that where instead of constantly asking, you found ways to sort of do the opposite, and give or build those loans?

Nathan Harris  
Yeah. Well, I mean, I could probably answer that question in multiple different ways. I don't view my role solely as a fundraiser. I mean, that is 99% of what I'm doing. You know, at the end of the fiscal year, our office has goals of what we have to raise restricted, or unrestricted cash are restricted project that, you know, there's there's pieces to that what I really see our role in philanthropy Christian higher in philanthropy is being a resource and support cast for our alumni and our donors, like, I want to be able to present to them clearly what we're working on, so that they're either compelled to join us, or they want to ask more questions, or they want to be a part of it. So you know, you one of the things I usually share with with my staff, or if I send emails, or I'm talking to someone, every meeting I have, I follow a model, I call it the PSA. It's my like, Christian way of having a conversation with somebody, it's helpful for me that other than making an ask of somebody, which is the A and the PSA is I'm usually saying, Here's ways that you can be praying for us. So I'm engaging them on not just the financial level, but a spiritual level. Here's ways you can be praying for Grace College and Seminary. And then awesome, here's ways that you can be sharing about us. So I'm trying to supply them with as much information as I can or newsletter, yeah, it's my own. In every meeting, I'm trying to give them snippets of, you know, projects that we're working on, so that they can be praying for us if they're so inclined to donors, no donors. So I mean, I'm trying to get in front of them, here's ways that you can be sharing about, you know, our baseball project, you know, other people that love baseball, and want to see that advanced in our community, you know, etc, etc. And then finally, getting to that ask of partnership, investing in the future of our students. But man, I really believe people are like banks, I had a college professor, tell us this in a ministry, he goes, get curious where you're going relationships, and people are banks, you cannot make a withdrawal until you've made plenty of deposits. And I mean, that is true in every sphere of life, you know, not just for me in relationships with donors, like, I'm not trying to just sit down with somebody, and the first time I meet with them, ask them for a gift. I'm trying to invest something into them so that they have relational. So I've relational capacity with them, that I've relational trust with them, like I'm sitting down to go, Hey, I'm not just here to get in your pocketbook, I'm here to really develop a relationship with you so that you have trust between me and the institution, and that you believe and know where we're going and what we're doing. To me, that's the most important thing, you know, that my staff will will joke with me because when I have a lunch with a donor or alum, it's not an hour and done, I tend to spend as much time with them as I can, because I want them to, to see authenticity, I want them to think that our relationship is not transactional, purely transactional, that there really is elements of like, Hey, I care about you, and I want what's best for you. Likewise, I care about this institution, I want what's best for them? How can we partner together? So,

Caleb Roth  
so give us a rough idea in a given year? How many individual meetings do you have? Would you say, are interactions? Like what something meaningful a real life phone call in person coffee? Lunch? Yeah. Are you meeting with 300 500? Do you have give a rough idea? Oh, man, I mean,

Nathan Harris  
there would be innumerable meetings throughout the year, innumerable interactions. I mean, we have a hospitality suite and our, you know, arena, I'll interact with people regularly at basketball games in the community. And you know, there's oftentimes you can't go to Meijer or Kroger, or go out to dinner, and

Caleb Roth  
you'll see a prospective RTS about 15,000. Yeah, we're gonna go grab dinner. And yes, I guarantee we'll see somebody.

Nathan Harris  
Well, you know, a prime example of this is last Sunday, we walk into church, and I'm taking my kids jackets off and somebody starts asking me a question about a recent grant we've been applying for. So it's like, every day, you can't escape it. You're, you know, the joy of of a small town. But I'm trying to get back to the original question.

Caleb Roth  
Just just trying to set the stage in terms of how many people are you seeing Oh, yeah, like how many how many, like in depth interactions. So

Nathan Harris  
for me, I tried to have a measurable eight to 10 per month. So in an administrative role, having a little bit more kind of grand revisionary oversight for advancement. I don't have as many visits as some of our other staff members. So I have eight to 10 quality visits per month, some months can be 12 to 15. Now, what about what's the quality visit is scheduled time with person so it's not just the random phone call that lasts 20 or 30 minutes while you know. I mark that down? I knew I've met with him I take my notes on that. But for Meet its meals, get togethers, golfing, you know, sitting over someone's house, I try to have eight to 10 of those quality visits and those, it's like compound interest that adds up over the year where you can look back and say, you know, I had a significant amount of, you know, I had 140, some significant visits that accumulated into significant gifts, or a long term relationship building or investment in other ways.

Caleb Roth  
Is there magic to the 810 number, roughly two a week works for your schedule,

Nathan Harris  
it works for my schedule, you know, the average gift officer, so like somebody that would be in my role, non administrative, they're usually between 15 and 20 visits per month, because they have more bandwidth to do. So for me, eight to 10 is is healthy, it gets me, you know, out of the office, in significant ways to three times a week sometimes. Yeah.

Caleb Roth  
That's interesting. I think a lot of people think you do something full time. And so it's going to be 40 hours a week. So therefore, you should be doing, you know, 20 or 30 a week. Yeah. But then there'll be no time to do homework. Do your research. Yep. Take notes. Yeah, connect dots. My mind is going in 10 different directions at once. I do want to dig into a few stories. So again, I know most people listening to this are not going to be advancement directors or you know, engaging regularly and asking for money. So they may just immediately tune out and maybe they'll tune in to riches episode, where you're on the other end, how do you connect well, with community? Yeah, when your job is to give money away. But walk us through, I want to I want to hear stories on both ends of the spectrum. Give me an example. Outside of me, because we play golf and drinks and bourbon and coffee and good conversation. What's an example of somebody that you went into hoping to ask for money or share what grace is doing and kind of turned into a really meaningful relationship? And you can hide the name? Yeah. And on the other end of the spectrum, what's one where you've gone in and maybe you did the incorrect homework and something just totally bombed? Oh, absolutely. Love to hear just kind of the highs and lows, absolute like the job. And I'll let you decide where you start. Yeah. So

Nathan Harris  
I mean, first off, for me, it's the I have to remind myself of this regularly, is it the temptation is always I'm asking for money, I'm asking for money. I almost always before I go into, say, a lunch meeting where I know, I'm going to be asking somebody for money, I have to tell myself, I'm not asking them for money. I'm asking them to partner in our mission. So it, it removes me from the equation. So I'm my feelings don't get hurt when somebody tells me now that you struggle with

Caleb Roth  
Yeah, I'm a people person. Yeah, absolutely. I would take that personally, where you say, No, I'm sorry. It doesn't make sense to give? And I'd be like,

Nathan Harris  
yes. Oh, big time. I mean, you have to remind yourself that on a regular basis, and good, good gift officers, good directors of development, are able to remove themselves and say, it's not about me, it's about the institution. Now, you do come back and you know, you beat yourself up. But what did I did not? What did I not communicate? Well? What was I unclear? And yeah, it really is. It really is. I mean, yeah, if we could all perfectly follow Simon Sinek start with why in every conversation, then you'd never have a no. But so for me, that gets kind of the first thing is like, okay, it's not about money. It's about mission, how am I communicating mission? Well, good stories, let's see. And I've had, I've, I've now done fundraising at three institutions, I have experienced the highs and lows of like, you're getting in front of somebody, and within moments to ask kind of comes up. And it's an immediate, yes. And you're like, I'm very surprised that a significant gift like that came so easily. One that I have found to be particularly thankful for has been at Grace there, we have a donor, long standing community member, everybody in this area would know him if I said his name. I've connected with him very well over the last two years. And it has been a natural relationship. It's not just about giving, I've been told no on projects with this gentleman, on multiple occasions, because you just can never sometimes guess when when asking somebody if that certain project is going to, you know, be excited for them or, or what. But the telltale sign is the fact of continuing to meet together. And in fact, the thing that struck me the most and oh, this relationship is so genuine, that there's nothing about there's nothing awkward about on asking this guy for money on a regular basis was we were out in the community. I think we're grocery shopping and someone tapped on my shoulder, and it was that gentleman and he said, he looked me he was just gonna let you not great for you this weekend. Just very grateful for you. And it's like, I would have no relationship with this guy. If it wasn't for the fact that I was asking him for money to be in projects, or to do XYZ. But there was a hey, we have a genuine relationship here. And to me, that was like, Okay, I've, I've that's worked out. Well. No, I've also had the other side of you know, I tell new gift officers get used to hearing no, because it is something that's going to happen. You need to learn how to either overcome omit or correct relationships. But you know, there's been times where I've thought I spent enough time cultivating the relationship. I've talked about the projects I've learned who they are and what they might be interested in, you kind of go in a little, you know, arrogant of, okay, I've got this and you present the project and you spent hours preparing for it. And they just say no, and they're not interested in it. And then you have to navigate those waters of Did I ruin the relationship? How do I salvage the relationship? How do I overcome the know, in that? And, and it's it's tumultuous? So in the midst of the battle,

Caleb Roth  
if you want to call it that, yeah, what? So if I heard no, my first thought would be like, Okay, thanks for your time. And yeah, and the conversation? How do you how do you decide when to push deeper and say, hey, you know, is this a no, because I didn't explain it properly. Because your your mission and your vision is misaligned with this. How do you make that determination? Or

Nathan Harris  
do you just stop? Yeah, no, I don't stop. I'm a stubborn person. So I would say I always want to put the donor in the driver's seat. So if I hear no, I might ask them for permission. Can we talk about that? Is it is the timing not right for this for you right now? Or is the project not something that you particularly interested in? Because I want to hear the qualification of, do they not want to give to grace in general? Or was it the project? Or, you know, did I ask for too big of a gift in a short timeframe? So I want to hear those qualifications. And usually, if you're able to, you know, position yourself in humility, and ask them for permission to clarify, you're gonna get it. And sometimes it could just be, they gave you a no, immediately. And that might not actually be their answer, they will let me actually think about it. Or it might be the project, like, actually, I don't have a keen interest in starting a chess club, I'd rather do something else. And so you can qualify that. But typically, if they come back with a no, again, I will say, I completely understand that I really respect that. I want you to know, I care more about this relationship than a gift. And so if I can do anything, or if I've done something to hinder that, please let me know. Because that's not what this is about. It's not about Nathan, it's not about John Doe. It's about Grace College and Seminary. And I want to make sure that we keep it as such. So I try and overcome the No, I don't even like that language, because it's, you know, I respect donors and alarm. But I do I try and overcome that. No, to find out what was that know about? And then, then my game plan kind of comes in and I can pull up my play sheet and go, Okay, what's the what's the next move? And how can I, you know, get out the door.

Caleb Roth  
So speaking of books, again, if you read never split the difference I have read never split the difference boss, he gives a lot of the there's two schools of thought one is get people in the driver's seat, let them you know, try and get them to Yes, yeah. So try and get little questions. Hey, Nathan, you have two eyes? Yes, yeah. You know, a lot of parents want to make sure you kind of do little asks and then work them up. The other school of thought is get them to say no, and I love what Chris Voss says about it. He says, When they say no, they are in the driver's seat. A lot of times he talks about inverting the question and saying, Would you be opposed to jumping on my podcast? You would say the answer to that is like your natural response. My kids do this, too, is the first time they asked for something. Typically, the answer is no. Because I'm busy. And I'm distracted. As soon as I say, No, it actually stops. And then I'm like, Oh, what are they actually asking? So there is there's a lot of value. If you just run after the personnel, you're gonna, you're gonna miss

Nathan Harris  
out on more. Yeah, yeah. And usually, the first no is not the final No, either. Like, I mean, if you if you can have as much of a high IQ as you want. But to do a job that I'm doing, you need to learn how to have high EQ, and be able to read the room and read the temperature of the person, you're, you're engaging. But usually that first note is not the final though. So being able to navigate that and know what's my next best step forward. Is, is crucial for maintaining that relationship. Because you can ruin relationships. If somebody says no, and you push too hard. So you have to be able to know how do I do this?

Caleb Roth  
Yeah, when you come in, do you? I know that this might be a fun side question. I know that from talking to people that have been in advance me in the past, and they will throw me under the bus. I know, they've looked up like satellite imagery of houses. And that's kind of a proxy of how big is their house? Meaning how big is their digital wallet and their advertising? Yeah, I'm assuming you have software that probably tracks some of this down. But what are some of the other like inside practices in terms of figuring out because alumni, how many of grace alum are there? 1000s 510

Nathan Harris  
years. Oh, man. Yeah,

Caleb Roth  
I don't remember offhand. Yeah, I

Nathan Harris  
think more than more than 10 now. Okay.

Caleb Roth  
So let's call it 10,000 alum scattered all over many of which have fallen out of touch. Yeah, some absolutely some. Yeah, it happens, right. So as you're trying to kind of sift through this group to figure out what are some of the other like, tips you use this kind of resurface alumni that

Nathan Harris  
oh, man, you know it In most areas of life, this would be called stalking, but we call it work. So

Caleb Roth  
give us a little, again, if there's top

Nathan Harris  
trade secrets. Yeah. And my curiosity. Yeah, I would say, you know, we have a division that we call research and reporting every every advancement, any any nonprofit, institution, organization, if they're wise, they have somebody that's doing research for them. And this is in house or in house, you can hire out of house. And basically what research does is it gives you the skinny on that person or couple, as much as as much as your footprint online is available, we are able to No, and that, that is down to silly things of like Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and LinkedIn, and they'd have it down to you I have a puppy. Yes, yeah. So I mean, I, you know, it's one of the things that if I've not met with somebody before, if they've got social media, I'm looking at all their social media, because I want to know, you know, find things that they may like, I want to have commonalities with them. It's not, it's not airy manipulation. It's a, you know, I know that you guys have a puppy. And I saw that because of social media, not because of a text message. Actually, I think I found out from the text message and then saw on social media, but you know, still stands nonetheless, where I'm looking at LinkedIn, because I'm knowing what jobs have they have, what job do they currently have, you can look up information on that company that they work for. So you, you're doing all the research to be well prepared. And I view this as a service to the donor to come in and not be ignorant to who they are, what they do. Again, not stalking as much as it's available information. So for us to be able to pull up, you know, we often joke and go, you know, I would love to know as much about that person as the FBI and CIA. So, you know, to deal with it. Yeah. And the IRS

Caleb Roth  
had been on both sides. From Grace. Actually, back early in my career, when I first started, I had very little money, because I quit a nice job at Johnson and Johnson and launched out on my own. And I would say there was times back in those early days, when they were big ask me to me where I almost choked on my coffee. He was like, I don't know what you think I have. But that's possible. And I've had asked on the other side now, where I still do business, like the kinds that I've had very small apps. Yeah. And it's like, well, I, you know, and I know that they ask is bigger, and they've only carved out a little bit. So is there a balance you've done in terms of how do you ask enough to if they're able to do it? Or do you kind of let them like, let me ask it this way, if you came down to sit with me, and we're doing, you know, new business program at Grace, and there's a building and whatever involved, would you have a number in mind that you're coming to me trying to ask based on all the homework you've done? Or are you going to lay out the need? And then let me sort of,

Nathan Harris  
oh, yeah, we always have a number in mind. I mean, that's something you want to be able to do, because I think it serves people well to be able to pitch, what are we looking for, from that type of donor. But also, you know, the old adage, you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. So listen twice as much as you're speaking, especially in donor relationships, I have found more often than not people will kind of tip their hat to capability. I mean, I've literally been in meetings where somebody will tell me, you know, recently I made a gift of x to x organization. And and it's it's kind of their subtle way of going this is the capability that I could do say, and it's not an

Caleb Roth  
arrogant way they think they're doing on purpose to kind of let you know, hey, I do have Yeah,

Nathan Harris  
I would say it's probably like a veiled ignorance. It's just kind of them talking of like, things that they've done. And I don't mean that in like a negative sense. But I mean, that just happens regularly, like, Oh, I've, I've, you know, I've given this, yeah, yeah, they're, they're supportive of organization. So, you know, you can either get the tip of the hat that way, or knowing enough of the information on the purple, what's the person what's their giving history, giving history is a good way for us to move people along. So you know, one of the things is, you know, somebody has historically given $5,000 a year, over a couple of years, I'm gonna go, Well, my next asks might be 7500, because they've given I want to move them along, in a pipeline of sorts of, of into that major gift territory, at some point, or, you know, you're constantly thinking of this person has made, you know, 10,000 $15,000 gifts up periodically. Can we get an estate gift from them sometimes? So I mean, there's definitely always a number we have in mind, but I want to let the donor talk. And then I usually will present, you know, if it's a specific ask that I will give the specific ask if this is what we would love for you to commit to. Or I'll say, I'm looking for three or four donors that can give us a gift of this range. Would that be something that you'd be interested in doing? And then you kind of can walk, walk from there, but again, it's always putting it in the donors, putting the donor in the driver's seat to be able to talk with theirs. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Caleb Roth  
So switching gears again. Let's pretend there's a grace alum who got off the radar and And let's say she was incredibly successful. You just saw on the news that she sold her company for whatever silly 189 10 figure, and all of a sudden, she popped back up. How would you approach that? Would you go directly to her and say, Hey, I'm Nathan, I'm in advancement? Or would you kind of find a known associate or someone else's differences? So walk us through that, because I think a lot of listeners would say, hey, I really want to get in front of this offense. Yeah, front of this person I look up to do you just go and I've heard stories of people that go directly to them and say, hey, you know, I, they find something of value to give, or they just make a bold request. And if you ask not, you have not Yeah, I've heard of high school kids getting like James clear on their podcast. Yeah. Because they just said, I started a podcast, and I'd love to have you on like, cool. You know, you asked for it. Yeah. So how would you go after a big name? Yeah, you maybe didn't have a relationship? Well, first

Nathan Harris  
off, I mean, I kind of live by the mentality of you don't know, unless you ask. So I mean, I tend to go for that. In my role. It's a little bit more. I hate doing that initial reach out when it's like you see on the news. somebody's done well, and then it's like, Hi, my name is everybody. Yeah, yeah. What's you know, I remember, you know, I had an uncle 15 years ago hit the lottery for 20 grand and it was like, he he said, he's like, I've got family members coming out of the woodwork. I didn't even know we were related to and it's like, it was only 20 grand. Like, I mean, 20 grands a lot.

Caleb Roth  
The lottery story. I think it's, there's a guy that one was called Powerball. Yeah, 100 million something crazy. He there was tickets Ohio, whatever state it was, they were going to record. A lot of states do it. So he knew it was going to come on the news. But he had let's call it a month before it went public. He went to every family member, as soon as he won and said, Hey, I'm a little down on my luck. Would you mind sparing $500? And every I think everyone said no. And then as soon as that came out that he won, and they all came to him, he goes, Well, you didn't help me. Yeah,

Nathan Harris  
yeah. That's funny. That's like next level. Yeah. Whether that's true or not. That is brilliant. That's very brilliant. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I find it a little bit more, it's like, they're going to be getting pounded. At that point, you're going to need a natural end. So for me, it'd be finding like, who is who is she still connected to, you know, in this in this realm in this narrative, like who she connected to who can make an introduction for me? Is there a close friend or alum that's currently giving that has a passion for what we're doing? That could be that easy? Hey, can you share with her some of the things that we're doing and make that connection for me, and you know, I will rely on other relationships to create relationships. And that's usually a really easy way for for me to kind of get in instead of me just reaching out and go, Hey, I would love to connect with you, or, Hey, let me connect you with our president or it's like, we have, of course, you're going to reach out now you didn't reach out for the last 10 years. Now I'm doing something. But you know, and I'd usually probably make some kind of joke along the line. Where have you been for the last 10 years? We've not? We've not heard from you? Because

Caleb Roth  
he Roger sticks, or here's one of the professors. Dr. Sticker. I guess I got that after I graduated, but he's the accounting professor here. One of his superpowers is he is a connector. Yeah, he actually sends out probably a monthly email. It could be more often than not, I don't really pay attention. But he sends a little updates. And he's never once asked for money. Yeah, but I love what he does. And I always tell people in your shoes, I think I told you that when you sat down and took the job, and I said, follow whatever he's doing. Yep. Because he has always, Gary Vaynerchuk talks about, you know, Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook, you know, give, give, give, ask. Yeah. And so I don't know what the right ratio is equal to say three to one, four to one. Praise criticism. The same? Yeah. Like, I forgive restaurants. But it's, it's that concept of I love getting Roger Zeeman. Yeah, because he's always giving value. He's always connecting. Yeah. And I think one of your superpowers and anybody that's in your role is you are connected. So one of the nice parts is I've met incredible people through you. So I know that your position exists to be transactional, and to ask for money eventually. I don't think you ever asked me for money directly. So maybe maybe over dinner tonight. Yeah. But one of the values you have you are super connected. And so you've introduced me to cool other entrepreneurs that go hey, you've done this tech thing. This other guy in Ohio are thrown out Ohio, has done it as well. You choose to sit down? Yeah, you've been very kind with that. Do you systematize that at all? Do you have software that helps you go? Oh, Tech Tech, boom, let's connect it. No,

Nathan Harris  
it's just like 100% of the mass of Mad Science and my brain. Yeah, no, I'm not very cool, please. No, it's that is just kind of like how I'm wired in general. And a lot of that is like, what's funny, like, use you as a example of like, yeah, we've we've made connections over the last two years with other alarm or people in the area. It's more like me thinking like, oh, Caleb would really get along with this person. Like, they'd be a cool, you know, the cool connection and then afterwards like, Oh, that was a that was a good thing like to, you know, great supporters of our institution now linking arms and other you know, other ventures or, you know, networking people They didn't know. So some of the it's just like 100% have the stamp happenstance of like, I don't think about it. It's just like, I'm just, I'm a people person. So it's like, you know, having committees or different pieces where it's like, oh, who'd sit really well on this team, and I want to bring them from their perspective and personality. And then you're like, Oh, well, these three people would really get along. And they'd be interesting to hear, have a conversation. And oh, he does m&a. And she's an attorney, like I want them to talk. And so trying to create the environment for people, for alumni to come back and go, Okay, we may have a 30 year difference in age, but there's commonalities that we have, and then it just strengthens that bond of support that they have for our organization. Yeah, that's a, that's a great thing. And I think if you struggle to make connections, if anybody listening is fine, someone that is connected. So find someone, either their job is to do that. Or you just know when I say who's a super connector. Yeah, I know that people pop into your head, and it's like, go to them, even though you might not have capacity in the right lingo to give to their mission. It's still worth building that relationship. And finally, and never be afraid to say, Hey, can you connect me with that person? I, I probably, I have no shame. I've never felt embarrassment in my life. But like, I have no problem like walking into a room and turning to someone else here and go. And they'd be like, Oh, have you met Caleb before? And go? No, I haven't. Can you introduce me to him? And it's like, you know, having that triangulation of like, hey, they had an existing relationship. Let's let me introduce them. And I'm sure you and I will probably do that at some point. Like, hey, kale, you know, this person, can you? Can you make that connection for me? And yeah, we'll see. We'll see. Does that help? Dinner goes. But, but yeah, I would just say Never be afraid to to ask someone to make a connection for you. It's just

Caleb Roth  
what life's about. Yeah. And when you go through someone that they know, they're way more likely to say yes, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One of the habits I've learned over the last few years I've really tried to put it in practice is when I think of somebody, let's say I, so you just wrote a book shameless plug. I've got that at home now. So at some point, I'm going to crack it start reading. And when I do that, I don't think of you. And so what I've started to do is go when that pops into my head, take the actions all textbook picture, Hey, man, read the book, great. Or hey, you spelled the wrong Yeah, probably. But I've learned to do that. I think the next iteration or the next level of that is when you connect to people in your head, connect them over. And absolutely very simple. And I've started to pick this up, and I know I can do better. But I started to pick up this habit, it's been really cool to see the people.

Nathan Harris  
Yeah, so absolutely. It's yeah, I do, I try and do something very similar, where it's like, sometimes, you know, whether, you know, it's the Lord's kindness of making you think of somebody or I'm just kind of like looking through a list that's like I've not talked to so to try and text them immediately, or give them a call. And it's usually they're not going to answer right away. So I get to leave a voicemail. And it's a hey, I was just thinking about you and wanted to see how you're doing. And that just, for me is like the you know, stoking the fires of relationship is, and I'm not just calling you to ask for something like, I'm, I'm actually here for you, but like, how are you? Like, you know, in our case, we get to know so many of our donors and alum that we know the heartaches that they're going through. And, you know, they find out family members are, you know, diagnosed with cancer, or, you know, hard stuff happens, I want to be able to reach out and know that and you're either be a peripheral support for them, or even just, Hey, you want to get together event? I'm happy to do that. You know, relationships just are beyond transaction at that point. Yeah.

Caleb Roth  
So walk us through the rhythms a little bit. You mentioned eight to 10 meetings a week that you are sorry, eight cent a month? Yeah. So are those scheduled out? How often will you re meet with somebody? What's kind of that perfect length of time in between meetings, and it

Nathan Harris  
depends on where they're at in a in a in a donor cycle. So donor cycles, you have discovery, mode, cultivation, solicitation, and stewardship, and it's kind of cyclical, so like, discovery is like, Oh, I've never met this person before. Would they have any interest in us, I'm going to meet with them and just kind of feel, feel them out. From there, then you move into like cultivation, which is I'm cultivating not just a relationship, but cultivating the opportunity to ask them for something, then you get to solicitation, which is would you give that would you partner would you have we want to you know, would you invest? Whether it's yes or no. And then usually we go into a season of stewardship, where they've made a gift. Now I'm thanking them for that gift, and I'm continuing to cultivate the relationship to the next next. So you kind of have this cyclical, so depending on where someone's at, if, if I'm thinking oh, by the end of the year, I want to make an ask of this person. I'll probably be meeting with them more often so that I'm offended in front of things that cadence is there that you know, come October when I want to make an ask. It's not well, this can I know where what you know, where have you been there? They're aware of it. In other situations, I'm

Caleb Roth  
gonna start playing Audio every time you read Yeah, it's closer and closer.

Nathan Harris  
Maybe contractions. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it just it kind of depends on where people are at in a cycle. I, I probably don't put as much forethought into rhythms as as I should. I carry a portfolio of a little over 100 folks that are my primary responsibility. So I'm seeing people, and again, in a small community that we live in most of the people I'm seeing out and about on a regular basis, but I try to every couple of months, be rotating through some of the key folks and I want to be seen one of your 100 you're probably touching base once a quarter maybe. Yeah, I would say that's, that's probably that's probably accurate. Yeah, absolutely. If I go like six months without having dinner with Joe Schmo, I'm like, Oh, I've I've messed up like I need to get in front of Joe's houses. How

Caleb Roth  
tangibly Do you track? This is? Is there software that you use? How do you make sure that Caleb gets tough?

Nathan Harris  
Yeah, yeah. So we have a, we use a CRM right now called Blackbaud. Annex t, which is a terrible name. Yes. It's, it's terrible software to

Caleb Roth  
the golf ball called the NFT. I think title is and yeah,

Nathan Harris  
yeah, there is, yeah, it's probably a better ball than than software. But that, you know, software is able to track, you know, it's got map systems in there. For us, it's, you know, we put a call to action. So it's like, after I sit down and have a meeting with someone I go in, and I put an action in and when did I mean I add an all those notes, I can set a future action of K reach out again, in one month, reach out again in two months, and then it notifies me. Yeah. So we try and do that as, as best as we can. Because

Caleb Roth  
anything surprised you in the past year in terms of relationships? Or do you read a book on relationships and just had your mind blown or something? You go, man, I, I always struggled with this certain element. And now I have like a framework or something that

Nathan Harris  
works? Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm big time reader, love, love, love myself some love, like, you know that I'm a butcher, the title I can't remember. But it's about knowing people, the David Brooks book we're just talking about, I'm about halfway through it. And it is shifting my paradigm of like, oh, man, how do I how can I do better actually, letting people be known in relationships? And it's, it's all about the person? And how do we posture ourselves? How do we speak? That that was transformative for me. raving fans over the last decade has been a significant book, and I you know, it's an old sales book, but it really is like, how am I developing relationships that they are a raving fan of this organization? So how do I manage that? But then I was just thinking of another one, and I can't remember who the Blount fanatical prospecting really, is so stinking good. Now, we all have copies. Yeah, we all have copies here in the in the office. And I've said, if you read anything, just read the first chapter. Because everything else you're like, Yeah, this is no brainer, and I should be doing it. But there's, there's a pieces of like, you know, salesmen or follow the ABC always be closing. In fundraising. It's like, always be cultivating or always be discovering. And for me, it's like, everywhere I go, I have to tell myself, like, who should I be meeting in this room? Like, who should I be engaging with? Who who is someone that I don't know? And how can I get in front of them. And it's, you know, even for an extrovert, it can be tiring of like, you know, you go to a local economic development, like dinner or something, and you're, oh, man, I've talked to 100 people today, already. But there's, you know, you never know who you might meet. And I think fanatical prospecting, for me was that reminder of like, of the, you know, 1000 people you meet, you're only going to connect really well with 10% of them. But the more you connect with, the higher percentage of people you're going to have significant relationships with. So instead of going on, tired, I'm going to talk to 10 people, I'm going, I'm tired, I'm gonna talk to 25. And that means, you know, now I'm walking away with three really good business cards, and I'm following up with those people afterwards and schedule another, you know, meals, and they could just be network and connections or prospective donors, but we'll find out but if you don't do that hard work of prospecting, you just you don't, you don't get new relationships. Yeah,

Caleb Roth  
I want to follow that train of thought you said one thing. So you kind of give three answers, which I love. But the first answer you gave, I want to learn a little bit more. You said you're learning about relationships to let people be known. Yeah, I think I got that language. Yeah. What do you mean by that?

Nathan Harris  
I think the temptation for a lot of people is to go into a meeting and do all the talking. And, and, you know,

Caleb Roth  
I have an agenda. Yeah, I'm gonna My goal is to explain what's going on. Yeah. And as long as I get through that, then, yep. You know, I gave my message

Nathan Harris  
and any silence is, is unnecessary, and I'm going to fill the void and, you know, there's all those temptations. You know, the analogy music guy music guy, so I can say it's the best drummers are the ones who know when to not play. Like they're the ones that you know can have that magic fill you know, you think Go, Phil Collins, and Genesis and are after Genesis with I can feel it in the air tonight, what's the best part of that song is that drum piece, the drums are not in, at all up until that piece and it's like, oh, that's explosive. So for me, it's, it's knowing when to not talk and knowing how to ask questions and, and digging deeper into that person of like, I want them to feel they walk away going, Oh, Nathan, really, he really cares about me he really spent time to get to know me. And to do that I have to let people feel like they're known. And it's all in that conversation in navigating and being a good question. Asker I'm, you know, I'm, I feel like I'm not a good question. Asker and I'm trying to develop that and read books on small talk. I can't remember who wrote that one. But the next question. Yeah, is like,

Caleb Roth  
how the heck do you do smells? Yeah. People that struggle,

Nathan Harris  
it's you know, not not asking yes, or no questions, but leaving so that they have to respond. So, you know, the question is not, do you have any kids? It's Tell me about your family? You know, there's, there's a two, do you have any kids yes or no. And it's done. But it's like what Tell Tell me about your family. I want to know, I want to know about your family. Well, you know, I'm Nathan, that I'm married to Kelsey. We've got two little boys, we have a dog. And before you know it, you've heard everything about, you know, their kids, spouse. So it's been able to frame questions. Well, that continues to let them speak. And they walk away going, Oh, I,

Caleb Roth  
I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm known. One thing I've heard along that line as well is relationship. We always have walls up as a rule just as humans, like we're just started. I don't know you. I know. You're probably asking for money. But even if that relationship wasn't there, it's very easy to talk about real natural things like weather. Yeah, sports. Yeah, maybe politics, maybe religion, but we're getting deeper. One thing I've heard is, the more you can let your wall or your guard down, the more the other person will reciprocate. That, to me is what you pointed out was how do I get to know somebody? Yeah. Right. So it's one thing to sit across and talk about your job and what you do. And that's cool. That's not really who Nathan is. And so, you know, part of my job is to ask questions, part of your job is to feel safe, around and comfortable enough to be able to do what you want

Nathan Harris  
to be able to disarm people. Like that's the car. So before I got into higher ed, I was pastoring. For years, you know, getting the opportunity to preach regular you read, you know, preaching books, or you're in classes, and they always talk about, like, how are you disarming the congregation? Especially, you know, I do a lot of guest preaching, like, they don't know, me from Adam. And you go in, and there's automatically his wallet, like, we're going to trust this guy. Are we going to be put to sleep? But yeah, probably, but like, you know, they kind of go through all those different things where it's like, I'm intentionally thinking about how am I disarming them the moment I walk up, and it's not through, you know, being a clown, and then making tons of jokes. While yes, that's part of my personality. But there's an element of like, I want to disarm that awkwardness pretty quickly. And I try and do that too. And every meeting I'm, you know, having with someone for the first time, that's why research is so important, because I can see on Facebook, that you're a big fan of, you know, the Kansas City Chiefs and like, I'm going to be clear, I'm not Yeah, but like, you know, you know, if you're a Steelers fan, I'm not meeting with you, but the Browns fan. But you know, there's those elements of like, How can I disarm the conversation in a very genuine way? Not in a manipulative way, but

Caleb Roth  
like, How can I just can do that by a good question, or by you volunteering a little bit of authenticity. First, give us an example. Is it the same principle for an audience for an individual,

Nathan Harris  
I'm probably the same in both and a lot of ways I find it and this is just kind of me personally is the personality of warmth, will disarm a lot. So you know, being genuine, nonchalant, hi, it's really nice to meet you. But it's really kind of going above and like, I'm really glad, thank you for meeting with me like this is, is a great joy, you know, kind of engaging them in that way. But then kind of starting to go in and be like, I'm really excited to hear more about you. You know, especially for our alum. It's like, I'm really excited to hear more about you and your experience at Grace, and what you loved about being here. And I just want to hear about all of that, like I'm interested in you. So trying to disarm that through warmth. You know, there's nonverbal, speak as loud if not louder than verbals. So the way you position yourself, feel our president here at Grace, He is remarkably good at this. And we were talking, you know, not too long ago, we were out on a visit together. And I had my phone on the table. And we laughed, and he was like, hey, it's a good reminder for both of us. That if you put your phone on the table, it's communicating in a nonverbal way that my phone is more important than you because it's something in between us. Oh my Gosh, darn it, you're right. Like, I hate it, you're so right on that. And that all is like how I position myself how engaged I am. Facial expressions. I mean, it sounds that sounds like circusy but it really is like, if you're talking and I'm the whole time like you're gonna be like do this due to dud. But if I'm like, big and you're if I'm like because I'm like, I'm wanting to hear this, then you're more likely to continue talking, you can continue sharing. And again, some of that is just like, if you're highly relational person, you, you kind of do those things well, but, you know, there are times I have to remind myself like, you should be smiling right now, dummy. Like, it's like, oh, yeah, I should be like, I need to be engaged. And you know, I'm tired. But I don't want that to reflect Him in that relationship, or in that moment. Yeah, I

Caleb Roth  
think the energy we bring does does matter quite a bit. Absolutely. All right, small talk. Yeah, get into a conversation. This is not one of the 10% of people that you're cut out of the same cloth. And you're just like, oh, my gosh, we could talk about anything. What are some tips and tricks for sort of prying into someone that may be a little more guarded? Quiet, you just don't quite connect? Does that just happen and you walk away at some point go, that's the best I could do? Or what are some tools you've learned other than just closing your mouth and letting them letting them go at it?

Nathan Harris  
Yeah, there are times where you just have to like, kind of cut your losses, there are people who are, you know, are willing to meet with you, but they're just they're incredibly introverted people, they don't talk a ton, even when you ask open questions they're answering quickly. So I again, want to have a high EQ don't always have a high EQ, but want to have a high EQ to go, I need to be able to read when this meeting is over. You know, there are times where a meeting can go for two hours and you're like are, well, I need to respect your time, let's but we both need to get back to work. And other times you're gonna go, this might be 45 minutes, and that's the most I'm gonna be able to get out of that person. And make sure that I don't, you know, turn them off to where we're at. But the tricks would be read, read the temperature, read their interactions, read their questions, don't don't overkill in those scenarios, because it's more important to have a, a healthy relationship than to, you know, poke a dog too much, whatever I want, I don't want to meet with this person again. So some of that can turn into then Well, then I'm going to have coffee with them once a year instead of once a quarter, and the rest will be phone calls to check in and how they're doing. We have a lot of people that go, No, I'm gonna get but you do not need to meet with me. In fact, I don't want to meet and you go, Great. Can I call him here, as he does perspective? Are they just they just don't want to meet? They don't need to, they're fine. Like, you don't need to meet with me. Yeah. Or they might have that perception of like, you're going to ask me for more than I want to give I already give. So you just kind of have to, again, listen, let them speak, they're going to tell you the frequency and format in which they want to be spoken to. And we you know, we get a lot that people don't want emails, but they're well, they are. They want phone calls. And so you know, be able to to notate that. And have that mind, let them drive the relationship and a lot of ways but yeah, when when people are just Ultra guarded. Usually a shorter meeting, there's no, unless you find the thing that like, opens that person up, like everybody has that everyone has it, you just have to Yeah, you have to find it. You know, I can, I can recall with someone recently, just a very nice, gentle and quiet gentleman. And I had happened to see on Facebook, massive fan of IU basketball. And so I just kind of started doing research and I'm like, 30 minutes into this, this coffee meeting and I'm going, this is going nowhere. It's very quiet. I don't want to be a boisterous personality that's like overwhelming them. And then yeah, you know, kind of you kind of pull out the like hand, notice your eye you think. And it was like, instantly, it's just like, the guy went from sleep into a wave and got to it. And I was like, Okay, great. Now I know, I don't want to pull that card every time we meet, but there's like a, that's a good sign up. But it also changed the relationship more of like, oh, we can talk sports now about this. And there's a vested interest in it. And we can go from there.

Caleb Roth  
Do you find since you prospect and sort of set people up on a rhythm, do you tend to do that with your personal friends as well? Does that sort of bleed over from your, your work? And your personal? Yeah,

Nathan Harris  
I will say that we like putting it into your CRM, your personal sphere, and lo and sibilla Yep, I totally doing doing this and in for work has overflowed into life. And it's like, it's like one of those things where you kind of get home in, like, friendships aren't organic anymore. But you go, but in this stage of life, as busy as you are, I'd rather schedule my stuff and actually talk to my friends. And so it's like, no, I actually do find it helpful. And, you know, even you know, for my wife and I, you know, we've been recent having conversations of like, you know, in your early 20s, mid 20s, you could schedule out week by week, or you know, within a month, then like, you know where we're at right now. It's like, we're, we feel like we're behind the eight ball and scheduling our family vacation right now. Because it's like, we need to be quite a few months out and you're like, Oh, he's just because of all these different components that you're like, oh, life is too scheduled, which sometimes is true, but also, if you don't schedule it, you're you're going to miss those opportunities. You're going to miss that. So you know, I've got a handful of very close friends that are kind of around the country, that if we don't schedule evening time to like jump on Xbox. We just like none of us are video game people, but we low like, alright, well, Thursday night that's, we can we can jump on and we're chat and we're talking about, you know, family and how things are going or while you while you're shooting each other on fortnight. Yeah.

Caleb Roth  
Yeah. All right, one last question and then we'll we'll certainly in the plane here. We both talked about Cal Newport a bit. Yeah, deep work. So there's the idea. And I like that our society is getting there. Yeah, I've heard it said that. We're kind of nearing the end of capitalism. I don't know if that's true or not. But I'm interested to see what's next. One of the thoughts is we've we've gone through this age, or we're trying to be as productive and as efficient as possible. We're trying to cram as much as we possibly can. And cow, I haven't read a lot of this stuff. I just listened to a podcast. So I know this much about the deadly. But I'm intrigued. Yeah, he's he's really hammering at that matters more what you're doing, and then measuring the results. And I've always been a fan of that. 8020. Yeah. So how do you balance that in your life between I want to do 10 to 12 meetings a month, and I've got all these other checks and to do items? How do you balance doing the right things? Either either with relationships or with your job? I'm just curious kind of in that conversation.

Nathan Harris  
Well, that's kind of like the principles of essentialism. Like it's not just doing, it's not just being productive, but it's doing the right things and like, how do I gauge what are the right things. And for me, I've got the same three things that I do every day. So I have a full focus planner, shameless plug for Hyattsville focus planner, you could use a moleskin, it doesn't matter, just write down what are the three things I need to get done today. And then that's the three most important things for me, it's, you know, contacting donors, and then usually, you know, two other major pieces that need done immediately,

Caleb Roth  
you do this time before morning,

Nathan Harris  
I ideally would do it the night before, but probably 50% of time, it's in the morning, morning, he's limited to three, I limit to three, and then I write other tasks down and I will try not to do the other tasks. Unless they're assigned to me from our president, I will try not to do the other tasks until those those big three are done, you know, massive fan of deep work, I scheduled deep work on my calendar, whether it's 45 minutes or a two hour block, I scheduled time where it's like my phone's on, do not disturb. My office door is shut, I will not answer if people knock on it. Because it's like I need to be focused on donor correspondence, or, you know, writing a new appeal letter or all those different, you know, fun things that are good, godly and necessary for me to do my job. But also the nature of my job is, you know, staff can knock on the door. Any staff or faculty member here can knock on the door, because they need something or have a question or or they just happen to be in the McLean building and want to say hi. So you know, deep work is a major component for me. Newports got a new book coming out, like in the next few days, called Slow productivity, and I can't wait to read it. Because I know his whole premise is like, it's not about getting 45 things done in a day. Because if you're doing that you're not getting one thing done super well. It's doing the slow productivity. It's compound interest of excellent success to say I can get two to three things done super well today. And then tomorrow, I can get two to three things done super well. And by the end of a few weeks, you're gone. I've gotten a lot of things done that I've not had to revisit. I've not had to go back on. I've not had to go oh, let me retweet that. It's to me that is, that's the hallmark of success is going I can get a few things done. And that's the most important thing I'm doing today. It's

Caleb Roth  
excellent. You're gonna love that one thing, then I gotta read it. Yeah, I think I think based on what you're describing, it's going to overlap a lot of good. His main premise is what's the one thing you can do? So figure out step back? Yep, you know, get perspective and say, what's the one thing I can do today? Yeah. So that if I do it, everything else is easier, or possibly not even important. Yeah. And it's literally that simple. And it's a great philosophy. And I suspect it ties in nicely. That's awesome. Cool. Well, Nathan, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for letting us crash your office and set up all this equipment and love it. It was a wonderful conversation. And I can't wait to compare this to Rich's version, he gets to give up money like candy. Yeah. And I will give one more shameless plug, I know you do, listen and follow along. We've got some leadership experts coming in. They wrote several books on communication, don't bring five gears, five voices, and then communication code. And so I think those will be kind of interesting conversations for you so sweetly, as you see in all of us as we try and get better relationships. That's awesome. So today, those will be coming up in the next three weeks. And this is this is episode one of the relationship series. This will continue on for probably eight to 12 weeks is what we envision. And we're really looking forward to digging into people that explore relationships from all walks of life. So as we land the plane as we wind down, do you have any last one pithy saying or comment? One more thing you just want to share with everybody? And then we'll ask where they find you. If you want to know

Nathan Harris  
what what's the quote from Billy Madison, sometimes I think I'm an idiot and I realized I am an idiot, so everything's working out But that's, that's usually my mantra on a daily basis. I'm a knucklehead sent here so fast. Exactly,

Caleb Roth  
because we get along. Exactly. And then if you want to be found, I know Yeah, absolutely.

Nathan Harris  
Look for your book. Yeah, you can find it. Find me on LinkedIn. I'm very active. LinkedIn user, you can find me on Grace's website and email me if anyone wants to be in touch. And then I have a book coming out. Well, I don't know when this is going to air but I have a book that's releasing on March 12, called gospel generosity, giving as an act of grace. It's all about Christian life in the gospel and how that impacts the way we view our resources. So excited about that. To be out, hopefully, it's hopefully it's helpful. Perfect. Well, I

Caleb Roth  
know you said you got a bunch of pre orders. So early. Congrats. Thank you that I will reach back out then and we will celebrate properly. Yes. Awesome. All right. With that, we'll catch you all next week.

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