Shifting Gears: Mastering the Five Modes of Being - Audrey Wyman | Ep 5

Audrey Wyman

It's it's the community hospital right in the middle of the city. So it's got quite an array of folks coming in through their er and I found myself there one Friday night, and I was about 32 years old, doing well married in a great job. And I didn't know who I was. And I was behaving like a five year old. And as my husband likes to say, I was like, the belle of the ball at Denver Health in terms of looking and acting legitimately out of my mind. So, yeah, I will just dive in right there. I started hot. Sorry, guys.

Caleb Roth

We all want to improve our lives. But sometimes, it's hard to know where to start. Join us each week on the Stacking Habits podcast with your hosts, David, Matthew and Taylor. As we uncover life changing habits from inspiring people want to know the best part, you can then apply those habits to enrich your own life and move closer to your goals.

David Chung

Welcome to episode five of the Stacking Habits podcast. We have a very special guest here today, Audrey Wyman, who is a consultant and mental health advocate based here in Denver, Colorado. She spent over a decade in the healthcare industry, working with organizations to help them integrate technology to improve client relations and services. And yeah, she and I connected in sort of a surprising way. She sort of has a side side hustle working with a well known artists here in Denver, Colorado named Pat millberry. And, yeah, she she and I connected a few months ago and happy to have her on. Welcome Audrey.

Audrey Wyman

Good to be here. I'm very awesome.

David Chung

So one thing I didn't mention is that you have two young twins.

Audrey Wyman

I do. I am a mother of four year olds, I have a boy and a girl. And I'm strategically showing the upper half of my house. If we looked at the floor, you would see like little boy underwear and dinosaurs and Legos and all of the reality of what it looks like to have a house with two four year olds running around like crazy dragons. That's

David Chung

so crazy. So for the last couple of years, I'm guessing they're in school now.

Audrey Wyman

They are Yes. Okay.

David Chung

So how did you manage juggling all all the different work that you have, with having, you know, two toddlers in the house, it

Audrey Wyman

was a hot mess. I had them in 2019. And I don't know if you remember, but in 2020, there was a global pandemic that kind of turned everything upside down and went from you know, we found them a really nice Montessori School. They were in Montessori school, I was getting ready to go back to my job. And my job changed on me. So I came back from maternity leave. And I was told I was in a new position, my position had been eliminated. And then the pandemic happened. So I was in a new position in a product role acting as a scrum master. And I couldn't take my kids to daycare. So we were still paying for them to be in daycare and have their spots because we wanted to support the teachers and like, pray please keep our spot while also having to work full time in a new position from our tiny house.

David Chung

It sounds like a lot to juggle. Now, the habit that we're talking about today. Well, the habits cumulative is really around dedication to self really investing in yourself. And that seems to tie in with your work with mental health. I know you run workshops on burnout. So what got you interested in the mental health space in the first place?

Audrey Wyman

Well, I have been a I've I think it's my own journey. I think that's really what brought us in. I have been a bit of an investigator of mental health. I've gone to therapy a couple of times, but actually there was a pretty intense scenario that happened to me, prior to kids, where I landed in Denver Health. I don't know if that any listeners are Denver natives but Denver Health is the kind of like it's it's the community hospital right in the middle of the city. So it's got quite an array of folks coming in through their er and I found myself there, one Friday night and I was about 32 years old, doing well. I married in a great job. And I didn't know who I was. And I was behaving like a five year old. And as my husband likes to say, I was like the belle of the ball at Denver Health in terms of looking and acting legitimately out of my mind. So, yeah, I will just dive in right there. I started hot. Sorry, guys.

David Chung

I was gonna say, I feel like we've got our hook, we typically try to find a good intro. Yeah. So did were you able to investigate? Did you figure out what the cost was?

Audrey Wyman

Yeah. So essentially, I had been working for a new company, I just started a new job in Boulder with a startup there. And I was if I may, like, pat myself on the back a little, I was kicking ass, I was just doing really well and getting a ton of praise. So my husband and I had just come back from our honeymoon, I had this new job to come back to, and I was, we were working on getting a lot of customers live. So you guys, you know, from that world know how important like, time to getting live is really critical. I reduced our implementation time, I brought more customers live than many other than my peers, and was kind of putting processes in place to help us scale. And I started working like a little bit later hours, but I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm able to do it, I got the free time. Like, I don't have kids. Like, I was happy to work till like eight, nine at night. And then I started doing bringing work home, working late at home and found myself one day, you know, maybe a little bit lack of sleep. So that's the big cue for me. Um, but it turns out if you take if you if you sleep very, very little, um, and you happen to caffeinate yourself and take Adderall, I also have ADD, so Adderall is kind of a ugly hack in this way where it can get you through on lack of sleep. But if you sleep, don't sleep three days in a row and try to show up to work. You will start talking about Game of Thrones and be invited by your boss to gently leave. And that's what happened to me that day. So

Caleb Roth

definitely leave as in be fired or just go home and sleep.

Audrey Wyman

You know, it wasn't even my boss telling me that another friend saw me behaving so erratically. His name is Eben if he listens to this Eben, you are some of the love just the kindness that you showed me that day. He took me on a walk. I apparently talked about Game of Thrones and in this really intense way for like a half hour. And he was gently like told my boss like, Hey, I think Audrey needs a break. And my boss was like, Yeah, you're good. And I apparently left. I don't recall any of this. I was I was very blacked out. But I got myself to a train station in Boulder took a train from Boulder to Denver Union Station, which is about half an hour walk to my house. Somehow I walked in my house. I don't know what that lock was like. But when my husband found me, I was behaving like five year olds in our house and wasn't sure who I was, was asking a ton of questions that made him super skeptical and frightened and was really, really frightened him. I think one of the for the first time like it was it was the most intense thing he'd ever been through to see me as person he loved and just married like, Oh my God, where is she? She's not Audrey is not here. This is someone else.

David Chung

Yeah, that's got to be so scary. What? What did the recovery look like? And I guess did that prompt you to implement any changes into your lifestyle? So

Audrey Wyman

I kind of woke up, they essentially took me to Denver Health, you know, at the prompting of a friend of mine who's a nurse or my husband was wise enough to call our friends who was practicing, you know, clinician and she said she having a stroke. We did the test and I wasn't exhibiting stroke symptoms. So she said, You know what, Justin, you seem really stressed. I'm gonna send Kevin over she sent her husband. And the two of them drove me to Denver Health. So I had like a little team of people leaning in and taking care of me that night. And they gave me a drug test because it looked they administered all the standards of care, like made sure that there wasn't substances in my system. There was not they pumped me full of a bunch of IVs of just a liquid to hydrate me. And let me literally sleep it off and sent me home and waking up the next day and realizing like oh my gosh, I don't know what happened and I don't know why. was incredibly frightening, like I didn't, I did. I was in a place where I didn't trust myself. And I don't know if you guys have ever been in that kind of situation where you're like, you know, I'm usually a very controlled person and I didn't trust my own brain was totally, totally freaked out about it.

Caleb Roth

So did you did you raise the flag at this point and say, Hey, I need help? Or are you still like being stubborn and saying, Okay, this is just a one off thing? I'm probably fine. Let me just get back to the hustle. Like, what what was your mentality at this point? And how did you actually, you know, sort of raise that flag and say, Hey, I think I need help us.

Audrey Wyman

So I wanted to get I was very afraid about a couple of things. One of the things was bipolar, I was acting pretty manic. During that time, I was like up late writing, I have a lot of weird writing. Also, if you happen to be my friend on LinkedIn, from, like, 2017, I was definitely like seeing messages in LinkedIn. I thought LinkedIn was like telling me something. And I like, Thank God, I'm not in any other social media. But I got a lot of LinkedIn friends that night. So I was really worried about schizophrenia and bipolar. And so what I wanted to do was go talk to the winter, my therapist, I talked to my like, general practitioner doctor, and I wanted to rule things out, like I wanted them to say you're okay, or like, oh, gosh, Andrea, we think you we think you have Bipolar, we think you may be schizophrenic. And I wanted very much to not talk about so much what happened because it had been so terribly frightening, particularly that that scene at Denver Health, and when my therapist was like, Do you want to go back and revisit it? I was like, no, no, I'm good. I just want some strategies to move forward. And make sure that never happens again, because I can't, I can't do that to my husband. I can't do that to myself. That was that was so frightening and scary and not fair to any of the people in my life that I am responsible for, you know, showing up and being accountable to you. Sorry, guys. I brought it I read a heavy this morning. Were you expecting that? Great?

Caleb Roth

Well, I think I think it's something that needs to be talked about. I know, I know. COVID has really helped people be a lot more comfortable. And I know a lot of people have been brave and stepped up. We came from the entrepreneurial world from the software world and burnout can definitely happen. And you know, the hustle mentality, Gary Vee preaches it. I know, he's stepped it back a bit. But so many of our friends and I think we've done it too, as entrepreneurs, we wear that on our sleeve and say, yeah, we're just hustling hard, and I'm working 12 hour days. And we wear this as a badge of honor, when in reality, we're just burning out our energy source. And we're just going to be depleted and not able to show up for the world in the way that we need to. So I think this is definitely something that needs to be talked about. It's really easy to talk about wins and successes and money. But this, this is really a strong foundation that that is worthy of talking about. So thank you.

David Chung

Absolutely. One thing I'll add to that to Caleb is, you know, I think as people are sort of swinging to the other side of the pendulum where, you know, before it was like hustle, hustle, hustle, work really hard. And now it's like really focusing on self. And, you know, I guess, to you guys, I'll open it up to all you guys like, in your mind, what does a good balance look like? You know, and how, what sort of tools or, you know, levers can you use to really make sure that you're balanced, because, you know, you can't just sit there and you know, be super self reflective all the time, like, we have to work and, you know, make a living to sustain ourselves. So how do you find that balance?

Caleb Roth

I think balance is a tricky word because you can't ever be balanced all the time. And let me explain why. I think most things are pendulums. So if you're going to work, like for me, it's important to time box or to put things down, I've got a sand timer. And if I'm not doing a podcast, I'll usually have that going. It's 45 minutes. And when that's done, I try and focus in so the balance is work really focused for a period of time and then check out and go do some other things and make sure I'm walking around and taking care of my body and drinking water. So the idea of balance as in work a little you know, play a little bit with your family a little I think you just need to be fully present at any given time. So that's that's my, my knock on the word balance. Audrey, I'm a twin as well. Oh, you

Audrey Wyman

are do you have a twin brothers system?

Caleb Roth

Do we are fraternal? So I know yours are fraternal as well. I'm sure you get asked a lot if they're identical, which is impossible with you know, male and female, but

Audrey Wyman

it's really cute question when people ask it, isn't it?

Caleb Roth

I know exactly. I don't understand how this work. But I'm curious. Are they like partners in crime, or do they just spar and fight all the time?

Audrey Wyman

Oh, um, they're like, I was like, hoping they'd be so sweet to each other when they were little and they were like, arguably demons to each other, like I was like these from hitting each other fighting, they have just recently turned the corner and like plot against me together. They're also learning Spanish and they know more Spanish than my husband and I. And so like that is their language and making like they're beginning to converse and plot in other languages against me.

Caleb Roth

Well, that'd be a good motivation to pick up Spanish quicker for you. Oh,

Audrey Wyman

absolutely, absolutely. And by the way, you love I know, this is like a really personal story. But I tell David as well, like, I'm kind of an open book. So feel really welcome to ask me questions. If it's something intense. And I feel like I don't want to answer it. I'll just tell you, but I really like people asking because I think people's questions. And if you have a question, probably other people do, too. So yeah,

Caleb Roth

we'll try and follow our curiosity. And I appreciate that, that invitation. One more thing on the on the twin scenario. So my twin and I obviously grew up together, we have a brother 18 months younger. So there's three of us within, you know, a year and a half. And just like your twins kind of fighting, it was always two of us against the other, we almost never always teamed up together, it was always two against one, and that would rotate around, depending on the day, the moon cycle, whether it was sports, or academics, or music, or you name it, but it's crazy, because I loved having someone to share life with every time you go to a new situation, whether it's driver's ed or a play practice, or whatever it is, I always had a wingman next to me. So they're lucky. I know, they may spar and battle and team up on you over the time. But it's it's pretty incredible to have that growing up with and I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Audrey Wyman

I love hearing stories like thank you sharing that. Also, I want to give your mom a hug. She is I believe that twin pairs are superheroes and she had another one I can't fathom. I

Caleb Roth

total Caleb, well, I'm one of seven. So yeah, she she's owed a lot of love. Yeah,

Audrey Wyman

super superhero. She's like an another class. Well, I

Caleb Roth

will still be swinging down tomorrow for like an early Thanksgiving. So I will I will give her a random hug from Adrienne Colorado.

Audrey Wyman

like that very much.

David Chung

Well, so Caleb, you just wrapped up talking about finding balance? And you were talking about the time box method? Audrey? What what do you think about this whole concept of balance? And I'm sure you've thought of it?

Audrey Wyman

Yeah, I think it is. I think it's very tricky. I think it's very, very tricky. For women and moms, I think we've been fed a giant lie. You can have it all. It's you can it's true, you can do it. And I will tell you that every woman I know that I've ever worked with that has a family. If I if I have the relationship where that person can be honest, they will always tell me, I feel torn. I feel torn between my family and my my career. And so that was really instrumental in kind of my career downshift, I was will call it a happy accident, let go from a company and 2021. And my husband was like, cash address really helpful having you, you know, around the house, and this is still in the middle of COVID. And if there's an outbreak at school where we got to go, like, go get the kids and be at home for 10 days together again, you can kind of be the default parent. So I just fell into that role and have found it really affirming and helpful to have a little bit more of that flexibility. And I'm not knocking women that I think that I applaud women who work who women who stay home, I think all of it is hard. There's no good solution. Unfortunately, I think that the balance is something that is I think it's something that you really have to own and figure out for yourself, because I think balance looks really different for different people.

David Chung

I know one of the things that you were talking about in our pre called was your utilization of the five gears framework. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? I feel like it ties in really well with this.

Audrey Wyman

Oh, you bet. So this is not this is a framework that I learned from Jeremy Kubitschek and Steve Cochran. They were former clients of mine, they work for an organization called giant. And they developed this really brilliant framework to help people understand the different modes of being. So this is actually quite fun to talk through. And I want you guys to be thinking about what gear is your kind of default gear. So first gear, is rest recharge. So this could look like sleeping this could look like a reading, working out, reading a book, you know, whatever makes you feel recharged. Just didn't rejuvenate it for my husband. He likes to run up mountains because he's crazy. But that's how he recharges. So that's first gear. Second gear is connecting intimately. So we're in second gear right now, it's hard to be in second gear with more than probably five people. But you can think of second gear as like, an intimate connection, like what we would do over a dinner meeting a friend for coffee, sitting in an Uber, perhaps, if you're me. So that's second gear. Third gear, when you say more

Caleb Roth

than five people started interrupts are you saying five people at a time like a conversation or five people just spread out in your life at any given time?

Audrey Wyman

Oh, it's hard to be if there's five people, you're probably in third gear, okay, there's a different way to get it. So second year, you can be in second gear with up to five people at once. Got it. But really good lead in Thank you, Caleb. So if you have if you're in more of a third gear that looks like networking, events, barbecues, happy hour, anything that's more of like a social hang. So you're connecting with people you're out and about, but that's gear number three. gear number four, is when you're multitasking, I'll do it this way your floors when you're multitasking, and doing multiple things at once. So I will share that our society is almost chronically in here for As Americans, we are usually checking our emails while we're in a meeting, have our phone there, you know, maybe there's a text, maybe there's like four different conversations going on. And we're like half paying attention. And then gear five is when you are hyper focused. So So focus that someone has to say like Caleb, Caleb, yo, Caleb, get your attention, pull you out of your flow state. So those are the those are the five gears, I gave you a very quick overview. I'm curious, what is your default gear?

David Chung

And by default, do you mean like, what gear do we find ourselves in most often? Or yester? raishin? Or which one? Do

Caleb Roth

we recover? With? Like what?

David Chung

Yes,

Audrey Wyman

yeah, good. You guys are asking really good question. Because I think those are all things to think about. I'm curious, what year are you most naturally in? What year is your you just kind of fall into without really trying, there's usually one that kind of has a gravity to it and pulls us in

Caleb Roth

are these in a specific order. So just to recap, I've got a few notes in front of me make sure I got them but rests pretty much by yourself connection. And it's maybe with one or two or three people fun, more of just social activities.

Audrey Wyman

What was the fourth? 1/4? Is multitasking?

Caleb Roth

So distraction add, and then the last day was the flow state where you're just completely locked in?

Audrey Wyman

Yeah, like a hyper focus.

Caleb Roth

Okay, and is there an order to those? Is this like an order of importance or anything? Or is it just kind of random five,

Audrey Wyman

I'm, I've actually I want to ask the people who created it, I think it goes from like, in terms of, I think every year has a purpose. But it you can kind of think of like shifting up as like turning on more. But for different people and there's different gear orders. So I'll share my default gear, you may have guessed it, probably I'm I it's really easy for me to go to gear to I love connection, it doesn't exhaust me it's quite helpful and restorative to me. So I gravitate towards gear too. But I probably have like, I haven't thought about my gear order for a while. But we could go through and think about like, what order we land in. So it's not a particular order. We all have probably a different a different defaults. So even

Caleb Roth

yours, David? Yeah, sure. And then and then maybe vice versa. When I see you, David, I think fun, like gear three just naturally makes sense. You are extroverted. Most of the time, sometimes you'll pull it back and I really see connection, maybe as number one, but maybe maybe a really close number two, because you are really good at seeing people and digging into their lives and really just making them feel special. So I see you in the fun state a lot. You really thrive, you do a good job pulling people in, and then I think you really shine in some of those more intimate conversations. How does that resonate with you?

David Chung

You know, I'm flattered and I like the idea of fun being my default state. I'm all for that. What I will say is if I'm being just completely candid, I that that first gear of rest really resonates with me because for me like you know, there's nothing better than a Saturday or Sunday where I wake up, you know, on my I own schedule and I, you know, make some tea or coffee, make some breakfast and I just sit down maybe I'm reading some newsletters or watching a YouTube video. And just like that, that is my state of rest and like, I guess maybe how it resonates with me. It's like my body calling for it. Maybe like, my body's like telling me Hey, David, do you need to slow down you need to stop like packing your schedule with so much stuff. But yeah, I would definitely say like, as far as well, but here's the other thing, I'd say the multitasking, like, it sounds less appealing. For me, although I do find myself, you know, watching Netflix with Instagram on the side, constantly. But like, you know, all these different gears sound really appealing to me, like, you know, I love it when I'm able to get into flow state, admittedly, not as much as I, you know, I should be but like, you know, just like being able to focus in knock out work or knock out a project. I love that, you know, multitasking and successful way. That's great, too. Obviously, fun and connection are great. But like, I think for me rest, it just resonates real hard. Caleb to me to take a stab at again.

Caleb Roth

I'm glad you picked one because I could just see you lighting up and say I love all of these this is this is fantastic. So rest is where you love being the most that's your home, you would say it's

David Chung

definitely my home. You know, I I would say I don't really believe in labels introvert extrovert because here's the thing is like I love connecting with people, both in smaller groups, like one on one. And in larger groups. I'm actually coordinating my one of my high school like smaller groups, like reunion next week. And so I love that like that the idea of like, bringing people together having a great time. Like, you know, that's, that's where I feel like I shine. But, you know, for for me, rest is so important. Because like, I do feel burnt out at times I think all of us do. And yes, I'd say like if I were a Roomba? Yeah, I really shine when I'm cleaning the entire house. But I definitely need to be docked back up to charge. I don't know if that's a weird analogy. But that's a

Caleb Roth

beautiful image. I

David Chung

love it. Yeah.

Audrey Wyman

You're one. So thank you for talking about what your what your Saturday, Sunday morning looks like? Because I think it's not just sleep rest can look different for all of us. So thank you for sharing that.

David Chung

Yeah, absolutely. Caleb, I, I feel like your your Top Gear is connection, whether it's with your family and all your kids now, or whether it's with us, you know, we connect several times a week, or, you know, like, we were just talking about your dinner with one of our old competitors in the software space. And so just like being able to connect one on one, or even, you know, just in a small group setting, I think that's probably where you shine. And then from there, this is just my view outside looking in. I feel like you're really good at getting into flow and just like, dialing in and just focusing on one task. And so I'd say like, you're either connecting, or you're just like in flow mode, and you're just in it and just doing you know, whatever needs to be done. Multitasking. I feel like yeah, you can definitely do it. I'm sure you have fun doing it at times. And then fun. Obviously, we have that huge bash earlier this year. That was a lot of fun. You coordinated that. And so you obviously have passion for that. And then rest. I don't know, maybe you're never in gear one because I know like, you're like, Oh, hey, I went to San Diego, I went to Florida, you know, I was in Dubai. You know, I connected with these people. I'm doing this project. So I don't know if you ever get any rest, but that's probably not true.

Caleb Roth

I do. And real quick. Well, we'll turn the spotlight back on Audrey here, but I think you're I think you're pretty close connection is definitely where I feel the most energy, I love to dig deeper. I like to call it nudging or disrupting I try and just push a little bit and some of the social norms and ask those deeper questions. And some people get defensive, I used to get defensive but I love just trying to prod a little bit and get to know someone on the deeper level and get to know some of their you know, fears or anxieties or what gets them most excited. So I think you're pretty spot on there. I wish I could be in flow state more often. That is that is something I've really had to push hard. If I if I find a great problem to solve then sure I'm there and I think you're right rest is probably on the bottom. Although I do have a pretty good morning routine. Now I get up I make a mushroom coffee. The latte thing I go sit in the hot tub every morning, it's me in the deer, my puppy, all the girls in the house like to sleep in a little bit. So I have the first, you know, 30 minutes to an hour of the day just to myself. And I kind of just think through what I'm going to do that day and just enjoy being out in the sunshine, and we've got some beautiful trees in her backyard. So that's where I get my rests. That usually recharges me and I'm ready to go.

David Chung

That's a docking station. I'll

Caleb Roth

do like docking station. Yep.

David Chung

Yeah, Audrey

Caleb Roth

turning the spotlight back on you. I love this concept of five gears. It just that just got a really good ring to it. When did you discover this? And was this sort of a useful tool in pulling you out of that funk that you were in? Back in 2019? Such

Audrey Wyman

great, great pullback because it's it's super relevant. And I'm going to ask you guys another question. That kind of gets us to the end of my the net of my story. But it's also you know, I think we've kind of discovered that all of these gears have utility, there's not like a good year or a bad year. There. There's all utility, for example, you guys are talking about gear number three, you're number three is where you build trust, for example. So when you're with a client, trust is built in gear number three, so that you can get to that like gear number two more intimate. So there's, there's utility, and there's a purpose between every gear, and we often I think are I often find myself in the wrong year at the wrong time. And since I've started thinking about this, I am able to more quickly identify when I'm doing that. But here's an here's a bonus question that will take us to the next level is what gear do you go to when you're stressed? And I'll ask both of you, and then we'll come back to mine, which will kind of tell the end of my story.

Caleb Roth

It's kind of a an Enneagram question, what are you when you're healthy? And what do you do when you're stressed?

Audrey Wyman

Oh, you're a student of the Enneagram. We'll talk about that.

Caleb Roth

I'm I scratched the surface, I'm gonna do it right to the surface. For sure, I would say when I'm not in a healthy space, multitasking is what pops up. And there's a lot of studies you can't really multitask. But I tend to not be fully present in the moment. I would love flow state, David, thanks for seeing me that way as one of my higher strengths. But I tend to be distracted to chase shiny. And so that that's probably where I go when I do get distracted and stressed is I kind of default to that state because there's a sense of urgency and anxiety that I have to just accomplish something. How about you, David?

David Chung

Yeah, I think I'm right there with you. But with a slight twist, I feel like it's multitasking and multitasking disguised as rest. And so I when I find myself in really stressful situations, I feel that I'm doing the same thing, right. I'm waking up on Saturday, Sunday, slow morning, making breakfast and just really, you know, outwardly, it looks identical. But I think inwardly you know, my mind is just racing. And yet you just start getting really tired, even though you're resting and you're not really doing much. And so yeah, I would say it's definitely multitasking too, but maybe disguised as rest. Right? Yeah. It's a great question.

Audrey Wyman

Super self aware. I like that you Yeah, I think we can trick ourselves sometimes about what we're up to when we think we're resting, aren't

Caleb Roth

you? Where do you go when you are stressed out.

Audrey Wyman

So when I am really, really stressed out, like my worst self, for whatever reason, my wiring kicks me into five, I just go like, I need to work on her. And I get like, really passionate, really focused, I'm that person that will be on my computer late at night scrolling, or just want to get something done one more thing done. If I just get one more thing done, then I can rest. And I just kick up into that fifth gear. And what's really interesting is that I learned I was learning this framework from my my clients at giant back in 2017. When I landed in Denver Health, and coming out of that experience, I realized, oh my gosh, I was just in fifth gear when I needed to be in gear number one. And so what the framework has allowed me to do is think more critically about, okay, if you can notice that you're in that that stressed stage that you're probably in the wrong gear at the wrong time. What is the gear that you desperately need? And for me if I ranked all of my gears in order one is my last I have always had a difficult relationship with sleep and rest in general and I think I am learning to sense that to have a better relationship with that particular gear and what it means what it looks like for me, and trying to find ways to get myself into it. So I'm curious if you guys have a gear that doesn't come doesn't come naturally or a year that you you need to work at to really get into. Yeah,

Caleb Roth

before we jump in there, let me let me prod a little bit with the follow up questions. So you mentioned flow state are really focused is where you go to when you are feeling stressed, or maybe not, not your best, healthiest self. It sounds though, like that actually serves you a bit. So do you find that getting into flow state, that's where you're going to probably do your best work. There's a ton of research on psychology as it relates to sports as it relates to performance. flow state is sort of where we want to be. So does that actually serve you? And then you just have to kind of check in and make sure you Don't overextend yourself in that in that gear.

Audrey Wyman

Oh, it totally served me until it didn't. Because you're exactly right. I think it's I was when I had my nervous breakdown. Or my my dear friend, Carrie, who leads workshops with me would remind me to call it a an acute stress response. When I had an acute stress response, I was being lauded, I was being congratulated, I was hyper efficient at work. And everyone was looking to me and applauding me. And there was this environment. And I don't think it was a it wasn't people being nefarious or cruel or bad. But they were just applauding someone working really hard and getting a lot done. So we kind of I think, really do value that, that gear. And it's a desirable one to be in it's kind of there can be like healthy flow states for me. But if it's 2am, and I'm in a, I'm in hyperfocus. That is not that is not a happy day for Audrey, and you can better believe that the next day is going to be real bad for me. Yeah,

Caleb Roth

so you mentioned you stayed up for three days straight. I'm assuming you're not exaggerating, you actually didn't sleep for for three days straight.

Audrey Wyman

I probably got between 45 minutes to maybe two hours. Each night. Like there was a there was a time of night where I was laid my head on a pillow and was like, crap, I gotta get the bus in two hours, I'm gonna just lay in my bed and try to sleep. But yeah, I was up. I was up for for basically three days straight. Wow.

Caleb Roth

So I'm gonna put a pin right here. In this moment, my 12 year old likes to say that she doesn't need any sleep. And she likes to burn the candle at both ends. And she's like, I don't I don't need to sleep, I could stay up several days. So I'm gonna put a pin right here, show her this clip and say, Hey, here's somebody an expert in this field. And she's saying sleep is important. So that's, that's my takeaway. Obviously, three days is much too long. So when you when you mentioned this five years framework and checking in my first thought was this is maybe an exercise you do every Sunday. But it sounds like it's something that you do more in real time. So is this something that's constantly at the forefront of your brain? Yeah,

Audrey Wyman

I think about it. Good question. It's so funny, David asked me to think about my habits. And I was like, it's kind of hard to acknowledge your habits because they're just automatic, and it's become automatic for me. And one of the things I like to do is, think about my day and identify what gears I want to be in, during that day, um, for different parts of it. So I knew when I was going to connect with you guys, I was like, Okay, get ready for to this is this is my jam, I'm pumped, I'm set. But I think the way that I think about the gears is bringing intentionality, to what gear to be in at the right time. Like if I'm in a meeting I definitely want to like put my phone down, turn it off, silence it, I don't want to be even kind of tempted to you know, get a notification and just like peek at it. So I think it's it's a it's a activity that I do almost automatically now where I know the gear that I want to be in for example dinner with my family, like that's kind of sacred time for me. So we're, we talk about with my kids like, Hey, this is this is focused time, but there's also times when blue is on and I'm working and also cleaning and you know, grabbing the laundry and putting it in the dryer.

Caleb Roth

There's totally times where multitasking makes sense. Go ahead, David. Audrey,

David Chung

I'm such a firm believer in environment shaping behavior. And I think it applies in all things in life like at our workplace, you know, we created the entire flow of the warehouse to support certain types of behaviors from the employees like not like weird behaviors, but like remembering to clock in and clock out like you know, just Just being intentional with where we put the time clock machine, for example. And you you brought up something interesting. You said, Hey, as I was getting ready for gear to I made my tea, you know, I silenced my phone put up, do not disturb. I know, we talked about how you moved your phone away the charger away from your bed. So again, when you're in gear one, and you really need that sleep and that rest, you're not tempted. And so I guess I'm not sure if it was conscious or not. It sounds like you're really shaping your environments to to support the different gears that you need to be in.

Audrey Wyman

Oh, 100% 100% I think it's a really wise I love that you brought up environment shaping, I don't know, Caleb sounds like you have little ones children are so it's so important what their environment looks and feels like. I don't know if you guys know anything about Montessori. But in, in Montessori, the prepared environment is as important as the teacher. Um, so they really think about and mindfully curate this space in order to allow the child to have the best experience with with learning and foster learning in the way that it was intended to be. Montessori

Caleb Roth

is also where everything is sorted the kids size, right? So they're smaller tables, they're encouraged to be hands on versus just a lecture or somebody talking to them. Right? Exactly

Audrey Wyman

right. Very experiential. And very, there's not necessarily I love this about Montessori, there's not necessarily an outcome. So if there's like a particular piece of work or a puzzle, the goal is not that they do the puzzle, right? The the work is investigating the pieces, and maybe that looks like you know, stacking them on top of each other. So there, there is much less focus on what the outcome is. But more just there, you want to really get their hands and get interested in what's going on with a particular piece of work and investigate it truly the way a child naturally does. kids or kids are very good teachers in that way that they just automatically want to learn and feel and touch and taste and dance her way to learning things.

Caleb Roth

Yeah, we tend to get I'm extremely analytical. So I live in my brain. The whole Montessori thing is a newer concept to me, but I love conceptually what it stands for. And what that does, because I think curiosity is incredible. And unfortunately, I feel that the older we get, the more we tend to move away from that curiosity. And when you see it in an adult, it's almost like it's refreshing. You know, I was just hanging out with Bill. You know, David and Matthew know him? Well, he's incredibly curious. And we go somewhere, and he's got wide eyes and everything is just, you know, wow, I can't believe that that's a thing. And it's like, Oh, I wish I could see life more that way. Because it really does make it way more interesting.

David Chung

Sure does. So shifting gears a bit, Audrey, this, this practice of applying the five gears to really identify where you're at? And also, again, give yourself the rest or I mean, pretty much put yourself into whatever gear you need to be in at that moment. Who can benefit from this? Is this something that everyone should be applying to their life? Or is this? Yeah, what are your thoughts on that? I

Audrey Wyman

mean, it has been so helpful for for me, so I would say, you know, moms professionals, I can teach it to my kids, they're a little bit younger, but we talk about it with my children. And it's really fun to do that, like we're in gear three, like if you can kind of like hand signal them. And I think it I think it benefits everyone to just be a little bit more. It's, it's almost like a mindfulness thing, right? Everyone's talking about mindfulness meditation. And I think being aware of what gear we're in, and is that the right gear for this particular scene that I'm in is really, really helpful. And I think that there isn't, there isn't anyone who wouldn't, wouldn't benefit from this. I do really think that it's also really helpful to talk about it with your team members, and learn how to understand other people's like your order. So that for example, my husband will if I don't realize if I'm like edging on stress, and my husband can probably see it faster in me because I get a certain look in my eyes and he can call me out. So I think it's also really helpful to know other people's stress gears, so that you can, you know, gently nudge him or, you know, for me, remind me to drink water or take a breath or or go to sleep, or eat something,

Caleb Roth

I love that there's a language around that as well. So when you when you can kind of say, Hey, you're, you're nudging up on gear five here, that kind of is a friendlier way of saying, Hey, you're really stressed out, take a chill pill, like one of those is not going to be received nearly as well as the other.

Audrey Wyman

Yeah, and I think the folks at giant, Jeremy and Steve, bring this to companies. And it really helps teams work together better, because they get to have the conversation about it and know like, Okay, this type of meeting or this particular setting that we're in, this is like a gear to time, we're going to connect, and there's, they also have, if I can plug them a little bit more, they have the five voices. And the five voices is really different kinds of personas that you can have, and different kinds of voices tend to be have, for example, there's a there's a voice that isn't very heard in meetings. And so one of the things that they do coupling these two kind of philosophies together is to make sure that they always ask the person who's quietness in the room for their their input to be added to like, the circle of whatever is being spoken. spoken to. So I love them for for doing that work.

Caleb Roth

And when you say giant, I just Googled it, you're not talking to bicycle company. You're talking kind of an educational psychological group, like what can you just give a 32nd overview of

Audrey Wyman

giant? Yeah, giant worldwide.com is their website. And they really are intentional teachers that talk about leadership. And they have some really helpful tools like the five gears like, that's just scratching the surface, but they're extraordinary with what they what they put out. And their their language also has a lot of visuals that go along with them. So I I would encourage people to check them out. Definitely. And they have books, the five gears and the five voices are super, super helpful. Perfect.

Caleb Roth

Well, we will link to those in the show notes as well. And we may we may have to go track them down and get them on on a future episode. Maybe talk about the five voices.

Audrey Wyman

Absolutely. We'll I'll definitely connect to him. And it's been a while since I've said hi. So it would be it's a it's a good reason to catch up.

Caleb Roth

Yeah, I'm super intrigued. One more One more question there. I don't want to be in on five years too much. But I love that we're just sort of kind of dwelling and focusing here. Are you familiar with strengths finders? Oh, yes. So yeah, I think we can nerd out over all kinds of things with with Enneagram and whatnot.

Audrey Wyman

I would like this.

Caleb Roth

So one of the core tenets of strengths finders is you're supposed to find what your five strengths are, I think there's a Gallup poll, I think there's 30, or 40, or 50, or whatever. But there's often a mentality in business to say, Hey, I'm weak analytically, or I'm weak socially. And the goal is to try and you know, bring up the floor levels of whatever your characteristics are. Strengths, finders sort of goes the opposite approach. And they say, Hey, let's identify where you're incredibly strong and gifted. And let's find, you know, reasons and excuses to spend more time in your strengths, because that's where you're going to bring the best of you to the world. So my question is, do you have a feeling one way or the other on five gears? Is this more of let's identify where you're weak? And try and balance yourself out in those those categories? Or is it let's find where you are the strongest and find reasons to sort of park yourself in those in those categories?

Audrey Wyman

Oh, good question. I think with the gears, it's a little bit different than a personality, there's certainly some overlap, I think the five voices feels a little bit more like personality. The five gears is something that we should all, we should all be able to get to all of the gears. And I think it's really the focus of learning about that is understanding the gear that's maybe not utilized and needs to be utilized a little bit. So there's times there's times in the day for all of these different gears. And for us to kind of there can almost be rituals where you get into one or, you know, set the set the environment so that you can get ready to get into gear for and there may be meetings where that's like totally appropriate, if that's within your culture. I think it depends on the kind of culture, the kind of business or the kind of home that you're in. I think what I've really benefited from is coming to terms with the fact that year one was so difficult for me, and I'll kind of tell the end of my story, which goes a little bit like this once I made friends with that gear and began to like really rest and notice and focus on that. I had an experience almost exactly a year later from my Denver Health night I was newly pregnant, and I was on a work trip and I I, as it happened, had a miscarriage. I was staying at a hotel and had a meeting with my client that that day went home. Sorry to be graphic, but I had a miscarriage while you know, in the shower, where I was, and it was incredibly eye opening. And suddenly I realized, like, it wasn't like, oh my god, this has happened, it was my first immediate thought was, oh my god, this has happened before. I've been here before. This is the second time, this is what happened before I went to Denver Health, I had had a miscarriage and completely hid it from myself. And I think our bodies are really interesting and sometimes hide thing, you know, we hide things from ourselves. And in that moment, my body hid something that was so, so difficult, I wasn't ready to deal with it. I didn't talk about it, I couldn't even tell my husband, like I didn't have the words, I couldn't tell myself. I was so sad and disappointed that I literally shoved it down and just started working. You know, and I think that's what we do in these moments of stress is we go to whatever gear we're, you know, as our stress gear. So my my second miscarriage I look at as this tremendous blessing. Because it, it was this moment of awareness where I got to deal very differently. And I came home from that work trip, and I scheduled some time off, I immediately booked appointments with my therapist, my doctor, and I talked about it. And I think that really the five years, the Strength Finders, I think all of these are tools to get us a little bit more self aware. And it's not really about being in a box or a container, but it's, it's about under understanding yourself really well. And I learned that my body can literally my brain sometimes hides itself really difficult truths. So that was a huge awareness moment for me. And I went from being like really afraid of my brain, like, oh my god, am I crazy, to like, holy smokes, my brain protected me. I couldn't handle what was going on. And my brain knew how to protect me in that moment. And my body protected me and I think since then, like you guys talked a lot about like, one of the reasons you weren't drinking is doesn't feel good in your body. And I think I have learned through the five years to have a really different relationship to not only my mind, and how I'm wired, but my relationship with my body. And I think that self awareness is all of these tools just get us a little bit more self aware. And that becomes almost fascinating to like, learn to make friends with yourself and learn. I'm doing that adorable thing again, where I like, go into gear five. And instead of getting frustrated, be really gentle and kind to be like, Ah, I probably need I probably need a big glass of water and maybe a hug and to go chill out or take a walk.

Caleb Roth

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing those those hard moments. And it's not lost on me. You had two miscarriages and now you've been blessed with twins.

Audrey Wyman

I did. Yeah. So as you've been

Caleb Roth

learning to be more in touch with your with yourself, your emotions, your body, I think, I think God or the universe or whatever you want to call it has said, Alright, Audrey, you're ready, we're gonna we're gonna give you a double blessing. And he still got a lot of work to do. It sounds like we all do. But that's Man, what a story. Yeah, Audrey,

David Chung

I really appreciate you telling your story. And just giving us an insight on the five gears and how it's improved your life, I can see immediate impact on my own life by applying a lot of these ideas. And so really, thank you for sharing your story.

Audrey Wyman

Yeah, thank you guys for creating the space to talk about it. I think that's huge for

Caleb Roth

our pleasure. We're still learning what this looks like, you know, habits like like you mentioned, they do become an automatic part of your life. But there is intentionality involved in saying, Hey, here's here's a spy, I've hit rock bottom. Or in your case, you didn't even notice it, a friend pulled you aside and said, Hey, I think you're pushing a little too hard. So just an encouragement. Whether you're self aware, whether you're listening to this, if you are aware enough of yourself to kind of you know, raise the flag and say, Hey, I need a little bit of help and check in. I think that's great. And alternatively, sometimes, or actually, most of the time, it's easier to see things in other people than it is in ourselves. So if you see someone else struggling or burned out or stuck somewhere, feel free to just toss them a copy of five gears and say hey, moron. read this, you know, whatever whatever gentle love looks like to you. So we will link to the book. I'm, I'm curious, I definitely want to read it. And I would love to have the authors on and maybe talk through the next step of the five voices. But Audrey, if people are listening and do want to find you, if you're if you're open to being found, how would people do that? Well, one

Audrey Wyman

of my other interesting habits is I'm not real on really on the social media, you can find me on LinkedIn, that's about it. I think there may be an Instagram account, but I haven't posted or been on in a long time. But a couple of things I'm working on is mental health one course, that I lead with my dear colleague, Carrie Ladd from well power. So if you're in the Denver area, or if you are interested in having a an honest talk about mental health, and I think one of the things you said Caleb was so so brilliant is what do you do when someone else is struggling. And that's what mental health one to one is really about. So you can check me out there. And then I'll be posting a course with one of my amazing mentors in the product space. She actually has a new product called super, super product dot tech. And I'll be doing a course she has an amazing course by the way on how to use AI for product owners. So you get like all the cheap prompts to get your products out. And I'll be doing a course around burnout for people in the product space. I think product owners are often like right in the middle of everyone. And that's a particularly difficult position to be in in a company. So that'll be coming out soon. But thanks for asking. Kailyn and thanks for having me. Yep,

Caleb Roth

thanks so much for coming on. We will link to all those below. It's obviously you have a lot of energy, a lot of passion, and I'm super intrigued. So thanks for bringing this habit to our attention. And be sure to tune in next week as we find our next fantastic guests. So thanks, Audrey, and we'll talk soon.

Audrey Wyman

Yeah, you guys bet. Lots of love. We appreciate you