No Shortcuts: An Educational Approach to Habit Formation - Andrew Hart | Ep 12

Andrew Hart  0:00  
you're referencing Charlotte Mason. So I'm going to throw out a quote she she said if habits are to life as rails are to a train. And so when we talk about habits, starting right in the earliest grades habits of respect, responsibility and obedience, for sure, the habits are very helpful and even even kind of central to our pedagogy, especially in the early grades. But to say that habits are the point, or like saying rails are the point. Rails are not the point. The point is, where the where they're allowing the train to go. And this is what habits allow for our students and for us.

Caleb Roth  0:45  
Welcome to the Stacking Habits podcast with your hosts, David, Matthew and Caleb, our mission each week is to dig into the habits, rituals and routines have guests who are living life to the fullest. But remember, knowledge without action is worthless. So be sure to take what you hear and put it into practice. turn these words into works in your own life. Without further ado, let's dive in. Welcome back to the Stacking Habits podcast, we are here with episode 12. And we have a little bit of a different guests, he's going to be a bit of a contrarian in some ways, I think many of us are always looking for the next hack the next cheat code, the next gimmick, the next shortcut in order to get the results that we want. And our guest today is going to kind of flip that on its head and say there are no shortcuts. And he's going to sort of go more foundational into the building blocks of habits and discuss and discover who we are and who we ought to be. So we'll leave that as a bit of a teaser. But guys, I have a quick anecdote that just happened this week. And it really relates to habits. So you guys both know anybody that follows me on Instagram. You know, I have a dog His name is Colt. He's a bit of a puppy yet he just I think he just turned seven months old. And I know this may be shocking, but Colt has a girlfriend. Now I don't think she knows that she's the girlfriend. Don't worry, this is not a weird date rapey type situation. But the neighbors across the street have a burning doodle. Ours is a Cavapoo. So they both have a bit of doodle. And they're both about the same age. And Colt has met her a few times out on walks now. And I think he's just realized now that she lives across the street. And so he has been escaping. He's a very social animal, but he's been escaping our yard, running across the street shows up on their front door back porch doesn't matter. And our poor neighbors are very kind about it. But they've had to bring him back to us a few times now. Well, what's interesting about this is at Christmas, I bought a GPS collars. So I didn't know this technology existed. I've never been a dog person. But there's this collar that instead of digging a electric fence line and putting a trench in and putting an actual wire, it just operates off GPS, they can send alerts and noise signals. And it can do the static, they call it static, not shocking, but construct the dog and basically keep him within certain boundaries. So we have the technology. I haven't fully trained Colt on how to use it yet. So he doesn't wear that color yet. And go figure he's been escaping more and more recently. So it's almost as if he knows. But here's the interesting parallel to habits. And this is something we talk about a lot. It doesn't mean a darn thing. If you listen to our podcasts, read a good book, follow somebody interesting on social media, and just absorb all this information if you don't actually put it into practice. So colts we have the technology. I know how this works. But it's sitting on my counter because I haven't trained called properly on how to use it. I don't just want to throw it on him and confuse him. And I don't think that'd be a very humane thing to do. So how many of you how many of us I know I'm so guilty of this, I don't take a lot of time to reflect or try to put a ton of stuff into practice. I'm always looking for that next nugget, that next, that next magic bullet that's going to make my life better. And so I challenge you, as you listen to this episode, as you listen to other episodes as you engage in your own content, I challenge you to actually look for ways to put it into practice. So that may mean pausing the podcast taking a notes and then revisiting that note later, they may be writing a note to your future self emailing it to yourself, you can use some sort of a time delay and check it out in a week. But I challenge you. If you hear something worth putting into practice, go do the darn thing. So don't leave the collar on the counter. Put the collar on the dog with training wheels of course, and I guarantee you your life will be better. So without further ado, we're gonna jump in with Andrew Hart from the Oaks Academy here in Indiana.

David Chung  4:42  
Andrew, you joined the Oaks a few years after it was founded. Can you tell me a little bit about what those first few years were like going in in 2002.

Andrew Hart  4:58  
David the first few years As of the school or when I came on board, and oh two, you said, oh two. So I've seen that. Yeah, in

David Chung  5:06  
oh two, Were you part of the founding team when the Oaks was founded.

Andrew Hart  5:12  
Now, thankfully not, you know, so it's always helpful not to be a founder, I'll keep that in mind to talk to you before we launch on for future endeavors, or never to put your name on the door of because you know, you're always carrying the responsibility of the founding vision. The school, as you said, was founded in 98. And I started in Oh, two, and those three and a half year of September 98, to April, oh, two, and I started this three and a half years, were fairly tumultuous, in part because the school had no template to follow. And it was the kind of the brainchild of a little group that was meeting who were not educators, largely business people, entrepreneurs, like yourselves, who had this idea of how a school could really impact a community, and bring about renewal and revival in a neighborhood and renewal revival, in every respect of the word from economic spiritual, to kind of a renewed sense of ownership of place prior to place. I mean, that was their hope, and vision. But a good entrepreneur probably knows their limits, as well. And, and they did, but they were drawn in because of a lack of leadership. So over the first three years, there were a host of things that went wrong, but one of the critical things that went wrong was not having stable leadership. And as you as you three know, you build an organization by bringing together and sometimes it's incrementally, but by bringing stability into play. So people kind of can rely on a product can rely on a relationship, current and rely on a place and a service. And, and so that, sadly, was not in place. And so when I started in April, about to, I wouldn't say, certainly a shambles. But I would say definitely a rather tumultuous start those four years. Uncertainty about payroll uncertainty about support. Uncertainty about curriculum, philosophy, and this is what happens with a lack of retention. In in my seat, so. So when I started, there was a lot of uncertainty and a lack of stability. So

David Chung  7:41  
I was just reading your bio before our call, and it looks like you have a business background. And the fact that they I don't know who selected who, but the fact that you came in with more of a business background, I guess, shows maybe four indicates where their priorities were, like you said, missing payroll, I guess, not having the curriculum. So can you tell me a little bit about I guess what came first in rebuilding the Oh, to a more stable place? Was it more financial? Or was it building the curriculum? Or was it a little bit of both at the same time? Yeah,

Andrew Hart  8:25  
there was a number of questions you layered in there, I would say this, the selection of a new leader was as much out of desperation. I don't know that there was a, let's bring in someone with a business background in order to write the ship. I don't. It was more of a who, who would possibly step into this role. And and so the fact is, is that I was volunteering for a couple of years. Within those first few years, I was a volunteer here. And I was a volunteer, because my boss at my former employer told me to be a volunteer. So that's how I originally got involved. And but when I got involved, I really caught the vision. And I really thought this is a place that is making a tremendous difference. And it really resonated with me personally, because you know, those jobs when you which is kind of I worked with Eli Lilly and Company, great Corporation, of course, kind of a pillar of our local economy, even statewide economy here in Indiana. I have only greatest respect for the work that they're doing. But Eli Lilly and Company, but it wasn't for me. And, you know, I come out of business school, I thought I need to make this work, but it felt increasingly like trying to cram myself into a role that just did not fit. And and so when I was asked to volunteer here, I had some sneaking feeling that maybe this would be a part of my future. And it was like this quiet sort of whisper in, if you, if you will have sort of like a ploy to do this, embedded with so much meaning is what really drew me in. So that was sort of how I got involved, and how ultimately I was selected. It wasn't because they were looking for someone to kind of bring some order, Bring, bring some hard headed business principles into play, it was more of who on earth would be would be called into this work, slash who would be desperate enough to do this kind of job. And I happen to be in in the seat when the music stopped playing, if you will. And, and so I was I was chosen. Now, what brought the stability? David, I think that was your second question. Right? Yeah. Because because the school is definitely stable now. And I would say that you started to touch on some things there that are very true. When when teachers are unsure that there'll be paid every other Friday, that clearly gives an insecurity and a sense of instability. And so for sure, there was an economic piece, but I would say as important. It's someone who is reliably showing up every morning, present available to work through conflict, work through problems, be available, be present, that was critical. And then secondly, working towards having alignment across curriculum, philosophy, mission. Meaning purpose definition for the school, how we work through conflict, and having alignment around those principles. And those ideas was really essential to giving this beautiful place a degree of stability so that people could just count on it. And not only teachers and staff, faculty, but parents, students, donors, people in the community as well. Because it was it was, let's say, tenuous, those first. And for certainly the first four, but well into my tenure, where it just wasn't sure, check my first day, my first day, it was a Wednesday. And I show up not really knowing exactly what to expect. And I'm this corporate guy, sort of starch or blazer, they're looking at me like what the heck, what on earth do you know about school? So how to sort of be a presence and build credit credibility, you know, schools, as you can appreciate, are credential places, both by experience and by education. And I didn't have either, and but my first day there, a young man was shot in the alley right behind the school. And I would say if there had not been someone didn't have to be me. But if there had not been someone present, just to steady the ship, meet with parents meet with faculty listen carefully, come with answers necessarily, but just to be available. I think the school probably probably would have brought in a lot of water, if you envision it as a boat, and it might have sunk. Because you can imagine, I mean, we were founded in a rough neighborhood to begin with, but this is right outside the back door. It wasn't one of our students. But it was gave a jolt of fear to the school and the sound. So having someone present to kind of study things bail out the water was very helpful.

David Chung  14:07  
I'm sure, I'm sure you did a lot more than just being there. But, you know, there's a saying that a big part of the day is just showing up, right. One of the most important things is just just showing up regardless of what you do is just like being there is instrumental. Yeah,

Andrew Hart  14:25  
I think it's a Woody Allen quote, isn't it about 90% of success is showing up. I embody that quote. Because that is a big part of because that's having a leader who is reliably pret reliably present is really important. I there's very at this stage is very little that I actually execute in my role. I'm largely a support figure. And, and that is about presence. And and about just, I think giving those who I work with confidence that that they're supported in their roles that's showing up it is.

Caleb Roth  15:07  
Well, let's back up just the hair. So let's let's dive into what the Oaks is. So the Oaks Academy is would you call it a charter school? Private School? What's the what's the technique?

Andrew Hart  15:18  
Not not sure charter schools will be a public school publicly funded, we're we're private, we would often say independent school. But we receive a considerable amount of funds from public sources from the state through voucher funds. So as an Arizona, we are eligible for voucher funds, which subsidizes about a third of the cost of running a school in the state. That's

Caleb Roth  15:47  
fantastic. And I did a little homework here. So I'm gonna run through some numbers and kind of set the stage as we dive into habits, because some of our audience might be wondering, why do we have an educator here, traditionally, we have psychologists or sleep experts, or someone who's into fitness, and we dive into their habits that sort of lead to something in the personal development realm. And I'm really excited on where this conversation is going to take us because it's going to take us a little bit different direction than we typically tend to go. So I'm very anticipatory of that. So the Oaks Academy has right around 1000 students spread out over three campuses, right in the Indianapolis area, so kind of the center of the state. So welcome. We got a fellow fellow Hoosier on a couple of things. In terms of the school it's a little bit different. It's very diverse. I grew up in a small Christian School and diversity for us was three refugee, Sudanese students. And primarily, everybody else was white, because we were in West Michigan. Diversity means something to the oaks, 40%, black, 40%, white, 20%, Hispanic, Asian multicultural. So right off the gate, very different setting than maybe many of our listeners are even in 25%, high income 25%, middle, and 50%, low income, pulling off the website, and then a couple of things in terms of how good it is. So I believe it only goes through eighth grade, is that correct? That's correct. Yeah, that's right. So the graduation rate, high school graduation rate in Indiana is right around 88%, The Oaks graduation rate. And keep in mind, they don't take students all the way through high school, they push them into local high schools in their area, I believe that sits right at 99%. So whatever you're doing is working. In terms of test scores on iLearn test looks like, historically, you guys are in the top two to 3% of all schools across the state. So those are some really tremendous numbers. And I know that there's some good college enrollment rates as well. Typical enrollment rates in the US are actually slipping. They're in the 62 to 67%. Right? The Oaks list on the website is pegged at 87%. So how'd we do on the research everything sound about right Andrew? does good work perfect. So whatever you're doing there is obviously working and we did a pre call, and actually, my wife and I came down and met you and Nathan and some of your staff and got to tour the schools. And that was a pretty cool environment, my wife does homeschooling. And so anybody if there's any homeschoolers in the audience, Charlotte Mason is a name that will kind of get your blood pressure going. But you guys are built off the Charlotte Mason principles. That's how we found you, and got to come down and pick your brains and learn a little bit more about educating and try to improve what we're doing. But in our pre call, I'm going to I'm going to use some of your words, hopefully, I recorded them properly. And this is going to sort of kick off with why we have an educator and why we're talking about schools and habits with with Mr. Hart here. So in the pre call, you mentioned that habit formation is less about the utilitarian aim of developing skills, or even a performance orientation. And it's much more about our relational life, which you said is all of life. So I'm tracking that makes sense. But you kept kind of going after that same point, you said habit formation is not about personal development. And most of our listeners are gonna go wait a second, that's the whole reason to have habits, it's so that I can get better at something. So it's we got a contrarian viewpoint. And you went on to say it's about caring for and nurturing the relationships I met. So relationships with God, others neighbors, yourself, nature, it's not about efficiency. It's not about scaling techniques. It's about how we're supporting students to be rather adept at functioning in healthy relationships. So I hope I set the stage properly. I hope I didn't mix up too many of your words. But I think for many of our listeners that are used to hearing very practical tips on how to better their lives, I think this is going to be a little bit of a head scratcher. So I'm going to turn it over to you, Andrew. And I'd love to hear how this came to be. And what does this mean for the oaks and what does this mean for students as they grow up and mature into adults in In workplaces and beyond,

Andrew Hart  20:01  
well, you've set me up as a contrarian. I, I rather like that identity to be honest with you,

Caleb Roth  20:08  
I can see your eyes light up when I said it. So I'm not trying to poke the bear. But maybe maybe this is what I need. Good. I,

Andrew Hart  20:14  
you know, you reference Charlotte Mason. So I'm gonna throw out a quote, she she said at one point in some of her writing habits are to life as rails are to a train. So they allow us in some ways to reveal who we are created to be habits, drawing us out of our weaknesses, drawing us out of our often negative tendencies to enter into something greater, more virtuous. And so when we talk about habits, starting right in the earliest grades, habits of respect, responsibility, and obedience, for sure, the habits are very helpful, and even even kind of central to our pedagogy, especially in the early grades. But to say that habits are the point, or like saying rails are the point. Rails are not the point. The point is where the, where they're allowing the train to go. And this is what habits allow for our students. And for us as adults, they allow us to move into a truer sense of being, in a way, it sounds really new age, I know. But it allows us to realize who we can be to realize our God given nature. Because there are so much clouding who we are, whether it be just plain defiance, or whether it be laziness, where we just kind of doom scroll through our social media posts all day, or, or watch series after series on Netflix, and, you know, eat a tray of brownies, certainly habits can lift us out of that, but for what purpose, and is the purpose to become sort of more convinced of our own strength and ability and more self confidence, perhaps. But we would say, as a Christ centered school that is coming to kind of realize, and maybe even uncover who we are, who we truly are as people, and as image bearers of God. So so that's the initial idea of kind of what the purpose of habits are at the oaks, it's, and that is about, like you said, Caleb, it's about habits equipping us, so that we can be unhealthy relationships with one another, with authority with God, with nature, with learning with a book with an author with an artist, material and immaterial, relational, and of what's present in our, in our, in our presence, and what's beyond our presence. And so this is why we focus on habits. In fact, I Boy, I wish as maybe you do wish I had a teacher, a parent who made this a focus of my own development, such that I wouldn't, that I would allow many of these things just to be humming, kind of, under the hood of my life, you know, where I wouldn't have to worry about some of the most basic things that I have to worry about now about being attentive about listening to my wife about, you know, eating in a proper way exercising, they, you know, I wish that I had an early age, I had been trained in habit, such that I would have healthier relationships throughout my life. So

Caleb Roth  24:15  
it sounds like one thing you're describing is this concept that we've talked about on the pod a little bit is is going upstream. So if something's hampering you or hurting you, and you kind of just go in and fix the symptom, then you haven't done yourself a real service. Because if the root is still broken, then that symptom is going to show up again. So what you want to do is go upstream. So what I heard you saying was, you know, I wish I had these habits formed when I was a kid, and so that I would now have better systems in place or a better understanding of myself in place, so that the natural things like sleep and eating properly and listening to my wife, those would fall into place. So I've got a list here in front of me, we'll link to it in the show notes. It's the Oaks habits, so there's 12 Habits listed here. I'll just You mentioned a few integrity, reflection, self control, service, perseverance, thoroughness, etc. But my question is none of these mentioned diet or nutrition or getting stronger. So in terms of going upstream, it sounds like you've done that, how did you as an individual or as a school? Or where did these come from? And how did you distill all of habits down into 12, building blocks, if you want to refer to them that way?

Andrew Hart  25:27  
Well, we, we were given these habits largely based on research, both neuro research and educational research of those who've come before we have added to them, and we've prioritized them by grade and by what's age appropriate. And so we add essentially three in each segment of a child's experience that the the key thing with habit formation at the Oaks is that it's aligned both language and practice in every class in every grade, in essentially every experience. So there's the acknowledgement among our faculty and staff, that habit formation is happening everywhere. Here. It happens. When we walk down to the hallways in the morning and sing a song of worship. We're forming a habit, forming a habit on how they conduct themselves in walking, how they are holding themselves, whether it's their body and their movement, or even their own heart and their own desires. In this time of worship. Habit happens when a teacher picks up trash around the classroom. And the students notice, habits are formed largely through imitation. And so all of our teachers know that they're being watched all the time. habit formation is set in the manner that our front desk, answer the phone, and convey a greeting to a parent. It sets a habit and an atmosphere for our school. And people begin to not only imitate, but emulate what they see around them, and becomes automatic. This is at the oaks, this is how we treat people, because we see it being modeled around us. And by I'm not sure exactly what you mean by working upstream. But that is everything there, everything is done intentionally. At least that's what we're hoping is that there's an intentionality around how we're modeling, because imitation is the most powerful way of forming habits. And and then what we're expecting, holding students to these high standards, which also, of course, is an incentive eight, incentivizing notion for forming habits. And so that is some some of the very kind of the building blocks for us beyond identifying the 12 of how those are actually put into motion.

Caleb Roth  28:10  
That's great. You almost gave a three part sermon there. And it's it's what we kind of where we've decided to take the podcast as well, we are looking for our criteria is intentional guests, who have implemented some sort of habit, routine ritual, something into their life. And that is allowing them to have some sort of an impact, either for themselves, hopefully for the world. It may be in their organization. So it's intentional people doing things, habits that have an impact. And so you literally just laid out our framework as far as what we've set it up for when we go and try and find guests and carry on conversations. Now habits, correct me if I'm wrong, we're not there at the beginning of the school in 1998. Is that correct?

Andrew Hart  28:52  
Not as not in an obvious form. I think that and not as consistently throughout the school.

Caleb Roth  29:00  
So walk us through where they came from. You mentioned there was some research you had done and neuro scientists and everything else did you find another school that was doing something similar? Did you find another business with your business background that was doing something similar? Where was the origin, if you can

Andrew Hart  29:15  
recall? Yeah, we sent a bunch of teachers to a school in Fredericksburg, Texas called Ambleside. This is a school that is kind of purely Charlotte Mason and Charlotte Mason. There's nothing really I mean, she's a wonderful, insightful Victorian era, English educator, and she brought tremendous insight into childhood development and education. But you know, much of these ideas that she brought forward into kind of K or even pre K, through teenage adolescent education, we're not so much new insights as more rediscoveries. I mean, as As you are having this podcast, you've talked to people, I'm sure that have talked about the kind of the, the Socratic Socratic insight of, of habit and the powerful leveraging effects of habits. And you know, there's a, there's a growing body of literature, both popular literature and research literature on habit formation and the importance of habit formation from kind of atomic habits to, you know, others that I don't even know the title. There you go. Yeah, very much. And so, so that there's a growing body of understanding and appreciation for the the the benefit that a focus on habits can have on our chocolate performance. And, and so we kind of discovered some of the language and some of the practice through our work with Ambleside and Bill and Mary Ellen St. Cyr, who are dear friends to kind of lead some of this work in advancing Charlotte Mason's philosophy. To the for us, that's all well and good in a school to land upon a very thoughtful philosophy for us that the essential piece in it shaping a culture and shaping expectations of all involved is that it would be consistently adopted and align every class, every grade, every experience with language and practice. And early on, in my tenure, we decided to do that we decided to cast out lots of students. Behavioral practices, which you're probably if you have kids in school, you're familiar with sticker charts and marble jars, and, and peg charts, you know, that kids are moving up and down peg charts and so on, we felt that this was, in some ways hijacking our students love of learning, because it was a manipulation of their emotions. And it was ruining their sense of, of, of why I do what I do, why I do it, what I what we didn't want them our students to conclude is I do what I do in order to have a pizza for I behave, and follow my teachers directions in order to add another marble to the jar, so that I'll get a prize, or a star, or whatever, we thought that this just cheapens the overall experience of a child's education. And so we pulled all of that out. And it was very much a part of an ox experience. Up until that point, we put all of that out and replaced it with an intrinsic on of, or a value system that was based on intrinsic motivation. Let's train our students to be attentive and responsible and reverent and punctual and thorough. And, and not reward them for doing so let's train them to do it and help them see the benefit in their own learning in their own relationships. And that actually, over the last 20 years, is exactly what's happening

Caleb Roth  33:42  
in India when you made the decision as a school to implement this and kind of throw out the old methodology. Did you do that in the like midweek? I'm guessing you did that over a summer and kind of kicked off the next year? Well,

Andrew Hart  33:53  
yeah, I mean, that's over several years, actually. Because it is like when we hire someone else in oftentimes we have to kind of detox them from their training a teacher, or, or if which is often where teacher colleges this is what they're trained in doing is training using these kind of emotionally manipulative means. And oftentimes, teachers just don't want to have any part of it. Like, you know, this is such a critical and essential part of how I manage a classroom. Without it, I can't survive, because it is in fact it is very effective short term, but it doesn't affect kind of a child's desires. And and what they really love what they end up loving is a lollipop, rather than whatever we're learning whatever we're giving ourselves to do, whether it's, you know, a nature study, or whether it's a math formula or a science experiment or whatever, and that that's what they we really want them to fall in love with. And not the kind of reward But we decided to adopt this and phase it in overtime because we knew that there were habits built in that we'd have to replace, let's call them bad habits that we would have to slowly wean off in order to replace with something which we felt like, was much more virtuous. Andrew, I'm

David Chung  35:20  
just curious. I remember when I was a kid, and I've got a niece and nephew myself. And, you know, if I asked them, would you rather have a lollipop right now or a five later? They'd say, I want one right now. And, you know, I think a lot of the methods that you were just talking about the marble jar, the star board, I mean, you know, those are all things that I remember from childhood. I'm just curious, how long does it take for the average student to really get a deep? What you said intrinsic appreciation for what they're doing, as opposed to the short term, gratification of star or sticker or marble?

Andrew Hart  36:03  
That's a good question. Most of our students start here when they're four and five years old. And most of them very much like getting candy for getting the right answer. Who who wouldn't?

Caleb Roth  36:16  
I'll take it.

Andrew Hart  36:20  
And so it takes time varies by child, it varies by according to the support of the parents. Their background,

David Chung  36:30  
is there a certain age though, that you notice most kids that just clicks? No,

Andrew Hart  36:36  
it's just there's too, too much variance. Because there, there are so many influences in a child's life, like we have very limited use of technology here, I'm going to give you another example. And for first children to come into the school and realize that their learning is not driven by an iPad, for some that really takes some adjustment, that all the interaction with a teacher is face to face, it's not mediated by a screen, they're they're learning to read a teacher's expression. They're learning to listen for subtleties that are robbed of them with with screen mediated, mediated education, that that takes time because there are students who start the gifts later, third, fourth, fifth grade, for instance, they have deficits in that area, and they have deficits in some of those relational areas that we might take for granted. If we grew up interacting with people in a school setting or at home. A lot of our students, many of them are coming from homes that are quite chaotic, where there are adults, but in and out and maybe a single mom, and and little conversation occurring around them. And so for them, to begin to discover how people Converse. And then they have not learned those skills. Up till 10 years old, that's that's gonna take some time. And that's that there's, you know, there are some habits built into that, obviously, you know, how you're listening to someone how you're reading their face, how you're listening for nuance, that's, you know, that's something that we take completely for granted now, because it's become a habit. It's like driving a car, you know, I don't think about so much of what I'm doing when I'm driving a car. And so same with our students now who've been here for a while. And this is what I said, habit. Formation is everywhere. It's in the air. It's in every interaction. It's in every action. And, and that's something that we've been very intentional about identifying here.

Caleb Roth  39:05  
Can we get real practical with that? So David, you mentioned the idea of self control or delayed gratification with the lollipop example. So Andrew, I know that you introduce, at least on the website says for new habits and kindergarten for in second grade for in sixth grade, self control is one of the building blocks. So when does that get introduced? And then could you actually walk us through? What does that look like when you introduce a habit to the students? How do you help them put it into practice? Because many of our listeners have habits they want to implement in their lives? And I guess step one is knowing where do you want to go? What's that intention? But practically, for children, and then how do we extrapolate that to adults? How do you teach that and then help them put that into practice? Yeah,

Andrew Hart  39:48  
yeah, there is. So they're shared language, first of all, so these 12 habits that you're mentioning, it's it's identified by all t Teachers, especially as, as this is the language that we use when we talk about student growth and formation, or habits. So that's, that's an image that might be easy to overlook on shared language, you know. And that shared language we convey home. Because we use the shared language and report cards, in parent teacher conferences, when a student is having a hard time, we're using the language of habit such that it flows, both directions school home back again, and that the student feels kind of enclosed by the shared philosophy of habits. So this is kind of back to the question of alignment. Now, it's not as if we have a ceremony, where we are introducing for more habits in fourth grade against sixth grade, it's, it's more of this as just sort of, we're now reaching a point of maturity for a student, they're entering fourth grade, they're now equipped to not formally say with sixth grade, and sixth grade is a natural. So this is our fifth grade, go leave kind of the Lower School and go to a different building. And it's a different experience are given lots more latitude of their own lockers, lots of movement, teachers by subject for either one teacher for all subjects. And, and so it's a natural place to introduce more habits. And again, it becomes a part of the language that surround them that they become immersed in. And, and that's, I think, what allows it to be in some ways, so comforting many schools, you go grade to grade, and it's a new scheme, every every teacher every grade, and it leaves, I think a student figuring out, okay, what is the what are the rules of this game that I need to master in order to get by, you know, which, when I was young, I was really good at figuring out the rules of student behavior. So I basically Could, could sail through, and my heart was never changed, really, because I was just learning, I just could figure it out. Here, it's very different in that way, in that, yeah, that's just who we are, it's part of our identity. And this is part of the experience of being a student. And because most of our students come in, when they're very young, it's like a fish in water. You know, it's like they don't they, I think they don't know any different, that they are well accustomed to this idea. And the expectations around this idea of habit formation, from when they start to when they finish and most common stay for 10 years. So it allows us to really invest in a student's growth and maturity, through habit formation.

Caleb Roth  43:00  
And I love that in today's society, we're so focused on hacks and shortcuts, and what's the least effort I can take to get the desired result. And you really peel that backwards. And kudos to one, once an organization is up and running, it had to be incredibly difficult, like you said, to tear down those bad habits, and restart, I used to work for Johnson and Johnson. So similar vein is Eli Lilly. And the bigger the company gets, it seems it's harder to pivot and to make those changes because that culture has become so ingrained. So it'd be one thing to send a bunch of prospective teachers down to Ambleside and say, Hey, let's go build a curriculum and start from scratch. I can't imagine the work required to come in and tear it all down and rebuild it back up. And like we said, the results speak for themselves 99% graduation rate from high school, when the state average is 11 points lower than that. So kudos to you and your team. How

Matthew Osborn  43:52  
difficult has it been for you to go about hiring new teachers? It's something where you're looking for people that you feel like are already a perfect fit for those 12 habits? Are you hiring people knowing there's going to be a large adjustment process where you're teaching the teachers the same thing that they're going to be teaching the students later on? How do you kind of find that middle ground of a teacher that knows the habits, but also knowing they're going to train them as they go along and begin to lead these classrooms? Yeah,

Andrew Hart  44:19  
it's far more the latter, Matthew than the former. I mean, we would be waiting a long time to find perfect fits for what we're doing here. We invest a lot of time up front in the interview process to ascertain a couple of things. Is this teacher humble enough to reflect on their own practice to realize that what fits and what does not fit? And that does require a degree of humility on the part of a teacher and maturity, and that doesn't mean they're older. They could be right out of college with just, you know, a year or so under their belt. or it could mean. And actually, these are often harder teachers to come on board here, someone with 2025 years experience because they have a lot more to undo. For us, it's a little bit of kind of an in between many of our teachers are teachers who worked for several years in a school system left to start a family, and then want to come back to teaching. But they've realized a lot and having their own children about what what is really consistent what what form of education, philosophy of education is consistent with the child's nature. And so they can come to a place where they can so called cut with the grain rather than against the grain, which so much, you know, this is I think part of why schools are such chaotic places now is that so much of what's advances quality education is really going against the child's grain. And sort of, like I said earlier, kind of kind of kind of hijacking who they are through manipulative measures, and not valuing kind of what a child can bring him in seeing them as quite capable, if only given an opportunity to grow into that through habits. So that's a long answer to your short question. But the hiring process is, is very challenging for us, we devote an enormous amount of time to selection, many, many hours, reference checks, observations and have them come in, I mean, one of the interesting, most effective strategies for us in identifying a candidate is have them come and spend a day with us not with any responsibilities just to observe, and then to interview them for an hour after they observe and ask what they saw. And if they have eyes, to see what we're doing, and have insight, then they're likely a really good candidate. But if they talk about and, you know, there's a lot of educational jargon and a lot about performance, then are they just, they're just not talking about kind of the value and principle based experience that our students are having. They're going to be a mess.

Matthew Osborn  47:17  
That's really good. That makes a lot of sense. I'm sure a lot of those exact principles work for hiring and just the normal private sector business as well as finding people that are willing to learn and people that can be observant, and look outside themselves and see what's actually going on underneath versus just the top level things that the average person would see that makes a lot of sense. Yeah,

Andrew Hart  47:36  
we, you know, we, we can see what they've done on paper. So we're not really interested in that. We're interested in seeing if they, if they, what they see here really resonates with who they are. And we that's what we spend all the time exploring with them. And that takes time, obviously, because interviews are entirely artificial contexts, right? It's a big fake, and that's what they're spending all their time trying to try to fake us out in a way, you know, and give us some sheen of an impression. And we want to cut right through that. I'm coming. Okay, tell me what did you see? Okay, what else it is, what else? what else what else? And just pound away? And, and sometimes I'm frankly rude about it. Because I want to get them sort of off their little, you know, carefully manicured cloth sort of impression and sort of break through it. So I really understand what it is that's motivated. What is what it is that's really driving them to be sending in that interview. And it you know, when it does, it takes time, it's not never done in one interview, or even two or three. Well, it

Caleb Roth  48:43  
seems like an echo of the same principle you're teaching the students is that we're not trying to just score well on a test or move the peg up the pegboard. We're really trying to shape your character and who you are. And that shows up in relationships. And the same way. When someone comes in interviews. It's not about do you look good on paper? And can you play the game just well enough to say the right thing so that we hire you? You actually, heaven forbid, want to see who they are? And you know what, I think the world would be in a better place if we did that. And if I if I had to sum it up, I would probably say in terms of what what i've what I've picked up personally. So if you were sitting across from me right now going What did you see? What did you hear my assessment of this interview is there are no shortcuts. Habits are not just some sort of a trick, or a hack or some way to get what you want. They are essentially an essence of who you are. And there's no way to just fake that and say the right thing and then magically have the perfect life. You just have to keep developing it. So that's that's my assessment. I don't know if that would be good enough to get the job down there. But there are no shortcuts. Andrew, I want to be respectful of your time. I know you have teacher in service today and you're playing hooky. You've been kind enough to lend us some time. Is there any last words that you would like to leave with our listeners before we let you get back to it?

Andrew Hart  49:58  
You know, it's interesting Have your comment. That's an insightful comment. And it reminds me of something Jesus said to His followers when they said, you know, what is the is that what is the work of God? Does he think, you know, yeah, it's just kind of these things that you can get done, you know, do this do that feed, you know, care for orphans care for widows feed the poor. But that's not what he said. He said, the work of God is this. And most people forget this, the work of God is this, to believe, to believe in the one whom he has said. And, and that is work. And it's similar with here it is what it is them it's hard work, because it's about showing up, like we talked about upfront, it's about being present. It's about often putting agendas aside, and being patient and allowing students often to grow at their own rate. And not according to whatever progress monitoring chart that we're trying to put in front of them. And habit formation. Yeah, it's just like, you know, building muscle mass, it's, you can you can hack it, a shot of steroids will do. But for true authentic growth is going to require work and toil and presence and, and, and discipline. And so this is, this is and frankly, faith. And so this is kind of what grounds us here at the

Caleb Roth  51:38  
well with that we will wind things down. Thanks again so much, Andrew. And be sure to tune in again next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai