The Relationship Rhythm: Uncovering the Communication Cadences that Nourish Your Relationships - Meagan Allers | Ep 24

David Chung  
Well, welcome to episode 24 of the Stacking Habits podcast. I'm your host David joined by Caleb Roth. And today we have a very special guest joining us. Meagan Allers. Meagan is the Director of Community at Marco Polo, where she focuses on understanding Marco Polo's users and Fostering Connections through the app. Now, what is Marco Polo? You ask? Well, let me tell you, Marco Polo is an incredible communication tool that allows users to connect via video messages with a mission to help people feel close. I think this is such an important tool in our lives as just becomes increasingly busier and complex. And so welcome to the show, Meagan.

Meagan Allers  
Thanks so much for having me excited to be here. Absolutely.

David Chung  
And to start off, can you briefly explain to those who might not be familiar with Marco Polo, how it differs from other social media?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, so we say Marco Polo is like video chatting for your like real relationships. So many people are using the app with that close circle of friends and family. And when you pop on, it's video first. So you open up a conversation many times, it's a one on one between you and someone else, you tap to start. And in that moment, it'll send a notification to the other person saying like, you know, Meagan's talking to you. But if you're not free, in that moment to watch it, the video is saved. So you can watch it on your own time. So unlike, you know, a FaceTime where you both need to be present at the same time and their scheduling going on or unlike a text message where you're just, you know, seeing what they're saying, but not hearing it and seeing their facial expressions. It's much more enriched in that way. So some people might say like, video texting, video, voicemail, but the videos are saying,

David Chung  
You've been at Marco Polo now for eight years. Yeah, Coming

Meagan Allers  
up on eight years. It's just so amazing. syncretic

David Chung  
it's incredible. Entering during your it's a long time. During the eight years that you're there, what are some of the more like, interesting applications that you've seen with Marco Polo? Oh, my

Meagan Allers  
gosh, well, I would say, you know, I think in the very early days, it was this idea of like, friends and family, like, you know, the, our founders, you know, created the app when they had their two young daughters and their family was spread across the globe. And so that was like a big piece of it. And I would say like, slowly as I was leading customer support, like emails started coming in, like, I want to use Marco Polo with my team or with this or with that, like we have real estate agents that are using it to show homes to out of state buyers, which I think is really amazing. I love the military use cases of military spouses who are able to connect with their loved ones who are deployed to like, read books. So like young kids, I've got like, older there's this one. I love "Nana Story Time", I call it this grandmother, Kathy has a group chat on Marco Polo with her seven grandchildren. And she gets on there. And she reads them a story. And they're able to pop on and like rewatch the different books like when they're available. And so many so many use cases.

David Chung  
That's incredible. And if I'm not mistaken, last time, we talked, you talked about your personal use case for Marco Polo. Yes,

Meagan Allers  
yeah. So I'm originally from Buffalo, New York. And I moved to California about 10 years ago. And so immediately, it was like, I didn't realize the impact a three hour time difference has, like when I'm getting off work at 5pm. It's already 8pm on the East Coast. And when I'm getting up in the morning, it's already lunchtime on the East Coast. And so there was this immediate need for me personally, of like, I have friends and family members that are still there. And I want to be close, I can't physically be going back like how am I going to do it and so I send Marco Polos to a couple of my good friends every morning on my morning walk. And I know when I wake up, I'm going to have a video message from my good friend Sheila, like giving me the rundown of her day, like what's going on and what she's excited for what maybe she's struggling with, and then I'm able to reply back to her on my morning walk. And so we have about two or three of these kinds of exchanges throughout our days. And it's been amazing in a way that when we see each other in person now, there's not this like need to catch up because like, Oh, I've talked to you, on Polo, like we're able to just like enjoy one another's company, and it's a really cool feeling.

David Chung  
So I guess my question would be, how does sort of a video format really differ? I guess for you personally, from a text based format or just audio format.

Meagan Allers  
Yeah. You know, I think that when you ask someone how are you doing? You know, you're going to text them How are you doing? You know, they could respond good, they could respond something else but you're not going to hear the tone of their voice and you're not going to hear it see their their surroundings and facial expressions. And there's something very therapeutic about Marco Polo that I hear from so many and that I've personally experienced where there's times I get on there and I feel like I'm feeling good and I start talking about something, you know, challenging that I'm experiencing with my partner or a rough situation with a friend, and it becomes very vulnerable. And you know, I've cried on Marco Polo, you have those moments where you just break down and being able to notice with your friends, their tone of voice and maybe their surroundings. And I think that that's those cues have really helped me to be a better friend. And to like, notice those differences and then be like, wait a minute, like, how is that really going, you know, like, let me let me ask more about that situation going on, or whatever it might be. And on like a lighter note, like, you know, I'm able to see my friend got a new haircut, or she did her makeup differently, or she's hyping up her new outfit. And there's like those moments of connection also, that I think you wouldn't get over audio or text.

David Chung  
Now, one of the, I guess, just jumping into it, the first habit that you have for us is really building in cadences to relationships. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah. So it's funny because I've started doing it like naturally. But then as I was connecting with our community, like they were sharing back with me how they were almost like habit stacking their connections with, with friends and family members. And so like, for some, I especially think during COVID, it was like, Okay, we're going to schedule this family zoom, or family FaceTime, and we're all going to connect at this one time. But, you know, as we go back, and we're all living busy lives and work and different commitments, like scheduling that becomes really challenging. And so what's been really interesting is how people have been habit, stacking their connections, specifically with Marco Polo, and you can do phone calls or other things too. But I know for me personally, every morning, I go for a morning walk, and that's my time that I'm going to listen to my polos and I'm going to respond back to my polos. And I do like, you know, a 30 minute morning walk and I'm gonna listen to that instead of like listening to a podcast or scrolling Instagram on my walk, I'm connecting and I'm, you know, make intentional about that. I've also heard our community talk about listening to their Polos while they're doing the dishes or folding laundry, you know, these simple tasks, you know, many people also have their car mounts, and they're listening to Polos during that drive time or commute time. And so I think that that's a great way to say like, okay, every time I'm going to go, you know, wash the dishes, I'm also going to listen to my friend, tell me about their day and what's happening. And so you create that rhythm of like, wait a minute, like, I need that I didn't reach out, I should reach out and those frequencies of when we're connecting, make it a little easier.

Caleb Roth  
In terms of the rhythm and the cadence there. Meagan, do you have good advice? Or is it more friend specific in terms of because I've used the app off and on in spurts? And I will say so the way I've always referred to it is it's like a walkie talkie. But you know, video feed? And David, you've you've used loom. Meagan, have you heard of loom? Yeah, so it's like recording your screen one of the magic parts of loom. And I don't know, the technology behind Marco Polo. But I suspect that similar is that as soon as you're done the video, just poof lives in the cloud, it's there, you don't have to upload it. Because back in my day, we had dial up internet, you made a video, and you had to upload it and that process would take a long time. And so the beauty of loom and Marco Polo is it's just instantaneous. Every once in a while there's a cellphone connectivity issue, but it's there. And it feels like a very intimate form of communication, because you have to be fully present. If I'm doing a video call. And I'm all you know, chit chatting and doing something else. Or I'm on the subway or wherever I may be. People can tell that you're not focused. And they're and so actually looking into the camera, showing your body language showing everything, it feels much more intentional. So use it use it sparingly. But back to the original question there. On the cadence. Have you found that there's a good rhythm that makes sense in terms of, you know, can you script it out? Or is it mostly by feel,

Meagan Allers  
I want to touch on something you said that him about, you know, being on Marco Polo and this authentic piece of it. And so like we intentionally don't have like filters on the app. And it's like you're coming on. And I think when people first joined, they're like, oh, gosh, I don't want to look at myself, I don't want to you know, but then you get to like this comfort level where you are on with a close friend. And so it's okay, if you're waking up first thing in the morning and your hair's not done, or you don't have a full face of makeup on. And so we love that, that people can be very authentic and vulnerable in that way and you hit the nail on the head with, you know, when you're on FaceTime, and you're kind of all over the place or doing whatever, but like here, like you're sending someone a message like you, they're gonna be listening to this for you know, two minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes, whatever it is, like, you want to be kind of concise with while you're speaking and intentional about it. And so I'd say as far as like cadence goes, you know, like, I've noticed that on Marco Polo, we joke that when you have different groups, there's like the conversation starters, the conversation continuers, then the listeners, you know, and I find myself to be a conversation starter in my friendships in my life. Like, I'm someone who I haven't talked to so and so in a while let me send them a Polo, let me reach out, let me see how they're doing. And I've just kind of assumed that role in my friendships of like, I'm going to take the initiative, and I want to keep close relationships. So I'm going to make sure to reach out. And I reevaluate, I'd say like, every month, just like, you know, who haven't I talked to, or that person had a birthday coming up, like, let's make sure to connect with him on that. And so what are those? You know, is it like holiday specific or just like life specific, like thinking about that.

Caleb Roth  
So it's a good approach to it. I do have a question in terms of balancing tech. So tech is beautiful. I love the fact that it's asynchronous, meaning I can send you a video message, you can watch it at your leisure, rather than syncing your calendars and lining that up, which can prove to be difficult. In today's connected world, from the tech standpoint, there's a lot of great options that are available. One of the downsides, I can hear my wife whispering in my ear is I don't want another communications app. So how do you think about that internally at Marco Polo? And how do you think about that just in terms of making decisions on Hey, this is a really cool, intimate, intentional way to connect. But it's one more piece of technology, how do you sort of balance those two?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, I think it's been a challenge over the years, you know that there are a lot of options out there. And you know, people like I have texting, I have FaceTime, like, why would I do this. And so, we've really spread through word of mouth, because people are using Marco Polo with like, their most inner circle, like, we have big celebrities that have talked about Marco Polo, publicly, you know, Kristen Bell, Mandy Moore, Gabrielle Union, Chelsea Handler, but they're not like everyone who wants to talk to me on Marco Polo get on. It's like they're using it with our inner circle of friends and family. And so I think our key differentiator is our purpose that we really want to help people feel close, and we stand behind that through our business model. So as a company, we've taken a stand that we are not selling user data, we don't have ads in app, we really want to be about nurturing those key connections. So you come on the app, and it feels like it was time well spent. And so that's a big thing for us. And, you know, I've heard from many who have said, you know, I actually have we have an ambassador program, and I work with our ambassadors and one woman shared with me, you know, I find that when I'm scrolling on on social media, and I catch myself, I say, wait a minute, like, how can I be spending this better and actually connecting and talking? Is there a polo? I haven't watched, is there something else like let me actually switch what I'm doing and reframe that. So we want to be part of the like overall, like loneliness epidemic that you know, Dr. Rebecca Murphy, the US Surgeon General talks about, about you know, that loneliness can be really harmful for our health. And we want to be part of the greater solution for that

Caleb Roth  
love that we shared some of those metrics a few episodes ago, in terms of Americans that would say they don't even have a single close friend. And I believe just off memory that's gone from 3% of the population in 1990, to 12%, meaning one in eight people would feel that way. And you know, it seems counterintuitive. We have all this accessibility, all this technology. And what that can actually do, though, if we're not intentional about it is pull us further apart. David, one thing you mentioned, and you know, this, this episode isn't sponsored by Marco Polo, I do actually want to touch on the business plan, because most social media is free, which means you are the product, meaning those companies are harvesting your data, selling it off, they're trying to make money off you. And they're incentivize you to increase the amount of time that you spend in the app. So they make it addictive. I'd love to just be curious about what Marco Polo does to sort of not be as addictive if, if that's something you consider, but then in terms of the pricing, it is free. And then if you want features, like I love to be able to speed my friends up, because I'm efficient, and I can listen quickly. So I usually turn my friends to one and a half to 2x, you do have to pay for that feature. And then I think if you want polos stored more than 30 days now, because they're stored forever in the cloud, if you pay here a year now, okay. Anything else? I'm missing on that? So it is free to use? You don't we're not, you know, saying pull out your pocket books and pay. But there are some premium features. And that is how Marco polo makes their money rather than ads and selling your data.

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, great points, Caleb. And so back in 2020, when when COVID kind of hit and we were like, Okay, how are we going to be a sustainable business. That's when we rolled out Marco Polo Plus. And so we always wanted to have a free version of the app that people could still feel close to those people in their lives. But we wanted the Marco Polo Plus version to be more of those convenience features. So as you mentioned, Caleb like, Yep, you're able to 2x that friend that maybe talks a little slower, you're also able to upload like photos and videos from your camera roll, do some notes and like little extra bells and whistles, if you will. And then part of that, too, is storing your polos. It's a year if you're on the free version, and those are stored in the cloud, and then indefinitely if you're on the paid version. And so for us, like you know, there's the free version of the app and if people are on that and getting you know, value and their connections and they're sharing it with others, like that's a win for us. Like we have really big goals -  we want to help you know billion people feel closer. And then for, you know, a small subset, they are on the paid version as well. And they're investing in their relationships. And so, you know, when we thought about pricing of the subscription, one thing that came to mind is like, you know, it's the cost of a cup of coffee with a friend every month, to be able to get on there and connect. So we're very grateful for our community.

Caleb Roth  
I love that. You may not be able to answer this... and I'll let David take over the floor after this... But are you able to share roughly what percent of people do upgrade?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, I'm not able to share those types of numbers. But I will say like, one thing that's been really cool is that when you are on our paid plan, we have these things called plus passes. So it's like two months of the premium experience, and you're able to give that to different friendships as well. So people love that incentive of like, I'm able to give back to those as well, which has been really cool to see Yeah, and

Caleb Roth  
I love the tech world we live in where that is a realistic business model where you can say, hey, we care about relationships, and we want to make the world a better place. And we want to serve a lot of people. And so Hey, for those that it's just a small part of their life, you can have access to it. It's not behind a paywall. And that's what I love about tech is it does sort of democratize things and make it accessible.

David Chung  
Yeah, I know this episode is starting to sound like a giant Marco Polo ad, but one of the cool things also about Marco Polo is billing, I noticed that you guys have a family plan. And on the bottom said that, you know, the people who are part of the family plan don't have to be part of the same household, which is such a contrast to some of the changes that Netflix and other large companies are making where in order to be part of the family plan, you have to live in the same household. And so I think it's just like, goes to show your guys's commitment and also meeting meeting the users where they're at, right? Like the entire idea of Polo is like being able to connect families and close friends that might be geographically separated.

Meagan Allers  
I'm one of those members day with it just got kicked off Netflix plan, you know. And so when we came up with that family plan, it was like, you know, family, or whoever you consider family, like add them on. And so that's been well received.

David Chung  
So Meagan, let me ask you this, we've been talking a lot about connecting with other people and relationships virtually. So I'm setting up these cadences through Zoom, text, email, or Polo. What are some examples in your real life, like your physical world where you're connecting with those around you physically?

Meagan Allers  
I would say, you know, for me, in my personal life, I've gotten into... Pickleball has been a big thing that I've been working on. And I actually started a dinner club as well. So when I was moved to San Diego, I was new to the city, I had some friends, I was playing volleyball with just like really casually, and I wanted to go like deeper and get to know these individuals, and not just the surface level. And so I started what I called the Little Italy Dinner Club, and I pick a restaurant once a month, and I would invite a bunch of people and, and have this dinner. And there's actually like different card decks out there that are like questions to help conversations go deeper. And I believe there was a study on it out of UC Berkeley as well like these different questions that really elicit closeness. And so I'd pull out this card deck, this deck group dinner, and I'd like facilitate this conversation to encourage people to go deeper, which is really amazing. And I think that for many when we would first start it, they'd be like, well, this is silly. But then eventually, like people were like, Wait, like, we are actually like getting closer. And like I didn't realize that. And so that's been a fun way in real life that I've helped to facilitate.

David Chung  
I love that I think that's a brilliant idea. And so if I wanted to start my own dinner club, what is like the sweet spot in terms of group size? Yeah, we'll start off with that. Is there a sweet spot?

Meagan Allers  
I would definitely say under eight, you know, because I find that a lot of dinner reservations. It's like you go over a it's like too many. And then like, you can only talk to those around us, I would say like six to eight has been really good. I would say like even over four could be helpful. And then I think trying to figure out like, I love to connect people in understanding, you know, for example, I have a friend Laurie who is a professional synchronized swimmer. And I think that's so cool. And so whenever I introduce Lori to someone I'm like, by the way, ask her about her synchronized swimming, because like she's got some awesome stories on that. And I think that could be a connection point. And so I'm always trying to like introduce friends and like set up that conversation to be like, you should ask about this because I find some people don't maybe know what questions to ask. And so as a facilitator, I like to kind of like give little nuggets to help get things going.

David Chung  
Caleb, I think I know what you're gonna say. The guests that we had on previous to this episode, has a bow called the five voices. Okay. And one of the well, Caleb, I think you can explain it better.

Caleb Roth  
I'm not quite sure where you're going with it. But so you go ahead, fire me up by

David Chung  
five, five rolls. And I really think Meagan is a connector.

Caleb Roth  
Oh, for sure. Yeah, based on what she says we talked about, there's five voices. There's Guardian nurturer. There's the creative, the connector and the Pioneer. And those are in order. So the Pioneers are usually the CEOs, they're aggressive, they're thinking about their future. They're very driven. They don't usually take time to stop and listen to people, connectors, which is actually what David and myself are. And it sounds like you are as well sort of thrive on their little bit living in the future. But they're also concerned with the presence and making sure things are working. And they they just see, there's a great Steve Jobs quote about connecting dots. And they just they connect people and experiences and ideas. And you like, I think if you're like us, you get your greatest joy when you connect to people that maybe wouldn't have found each other and they become friends or do business together or, you know, just start doing life together. And that's there's no greater joy than that as a connected.

Meagan Allers  
Yes, I feel that! It's really cool. You connect two people, and then they make magic together. Absolutely.

David Chung  
So going back to this dinner party idea. Is it is it the same cast going to the you know, the dinner party every you know, every meeting or is it a rotating cast? Yeah,

Meagan Allers  
I feel like it ebbs and flows, depending on schedules, and who can make it. And so I think that that is really great, actually, because then it allows different people to come in, like different perspectives. So there's like a list, if you will. And then I think what's fun, too, is and people are like, Oh, can I invite my friend, and then you get the Friends of Friends effects that happens. That's really cool, too.

David Chung  
I'm sure it's a great way to make connections when you're in a new city. And just like, yeah, just meet other people who are like, like minded and have the opportunity to connect others and just create those sorts of spontaneous connections, like you were talking about.

Caleb Roth  
You have a question related to the dinners. How do you balance? Like, do you set up a discussion topic when you invite people? Or do you pull a card or two and do that? I guess, how do you balance the intentionality that leads to deeper relationships? Versus just let it free flow and have a conversation with friends? Yeah,

Meagan Allers  
I feel like it usually starts just like free flowing. And then like, once people, like, you know, are eating their dinner, it's like conversations is kind of happening. And then at that point, it's like, okay, like, let's say, I've got some questions. Or, like, honestly, I was at a dinner with a group the other day, and they like, my friends turned to me. And they're like, You really haven't asked this new person, a lot of intense questions like I had prepared them that you are going to ask questions. Come on, step up your game. Yeah. Like, oh, I'm across the table, like, but Okay, so then, like, I don't know, people have come to like, expect that from me in a way, which is cool. And so then I'll just like, start asking different questions. And yeah. How,

David Chung  
how is that dynamic? Like, when you meet someone for the first time where you barely know them? And you're asking these intense questions, I'm guessing there's a fair amount of vulnerability involved? And so maybe walk us through sort of like, what a typical response might be when you start asking these vulnerable questions? Do they answer vulnerably? In the beginning, or is it a warm up process?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, that's a great question, David. You know, I think that part of it, that I've seen is that if I'm able to share something vulnerable about myself, and I'm able to show that, then it helps others feel more comfortable in being vulnerable as well, which has been really powerful. And so, you know, I feel like I, you know, start by sharing something that like I'm struggling with, or like asking for help in different ways. And then like, kind of reflect that back. I love when I'm meeting someone for the first time to ask like, you know, what are you passionate about? Like, what, what's something that really lights you up? And then I'm able to, like, get them talking about that, and I'm able to share my passions as well. So that's been a great question. Because I think so. So often, it's like, you know, what do you do? And it's like, Well, I do this, and then it's like, okay, it's kind of a dead ended question. Like, what are you passionate about? Like, if they are really passionate about their job, they're able to talk about that, or maybe they're passionate about something completely different. Outside of their work,

Caleb Roth  
Meagan, you mentioned the idea of being a conversation initiator, and then people that will continue and then people that are just flies on the wall and listen, and it sounds like you're pretty comfortable with that role. And being the extrovert, the one that reaches out connects. Do you ever find yourself in periods where you're like, Alright, I'm gonna stop being offensive and reaching out and just see if people show up for me. Do you ever kind of feel that and how do you balance that out? Because in good relationships, good, healthy relationships, I feel that there's an element of a reciprocal nature where sometimes you're reaching out and connecting and other times they're reaching out. And if you stop reaching out and they stop reaching out, then it just sort of falls apart. So is there ever like self doubt that creeps in your head? Because I know there is for me, where I'm like, Alright, my friends have stopped reaching out what does that mean?

Meagan Allers  
Absolutely. And I think that I've gone through periods like that in my own relationships at times where I have said, like, okay, like, I'm going to stop reaching out and see what kind of happens and there have been some relationships that have just ended for whatever reason. I think that I also like to take like a friendship inventory and look at like, which friendships do I feel like they're filling my bucket, and I'm also filling their bucket, or which friendships to me feel like just like really draining, you know, and I think that having friendships, you know, we want to be able to share maybe our struggles or things that aren't going well. But we also want to feel uplifted and supported. And so if the conversation is always just like, you know, below the line, kind of more negative, like, that takes a toll on you as well. So I definitely do take kind of that friendship inventory. And at times, we'll be like, Okay, well, this person reached out. And so I noticed that with my like, closer inner circle, if like, I'm not reaching out to them, like, they will reach out to me and be like, Hey, what's going on? Or they will schedule to make plans, like, Let's get together in person or things like that, but definitely something to consider in your relationships.

Caleb Roth  
I love that concept. Is there a rhythm that you go through this friendship inventory? Or is it mostly when you start to feel drained that you start to kind of evaluate and soul search?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, I would say mostly when I feel drained, is I kind of sit down and like, okay, like, you know, who are my bucket fillers, like, who are my people that I that I get support from and that are uplifting to me, like, and then, you know, kind of noticing. And I think also, you know, there's differences with meeting up with people one on one, like, we all have limited time, right? And so physically, if you're going to go and meet up with people, you know, a one on one connection can be really great. But if you have to have one on one conversations with like, 10 different people that don't have a lot of time. And so how can you then facilitate those group offerings where I'm actually more of like an ambivert. And so sometimes, like the group settings, I have to really be on and it's very draining for me. And so like the balance two of like, who are the people that I want to see in like group settings, so I can see a lot more people and who are my like, one on one, like sit on the couch type friends? I feel like that's been a big theme on Instagram lately of like, who are your couch friends you can just show up with and not have to, like put on an act or anything like that. And so that's been valuable for me to know as well.

David Chung  
You know, I've never I've never heard of that before. Until right now. And it just makes so much sense because I'm, I'm like, Caleb, you would totally be a couch friend. I mean, actually, we've sat on a lot of couches together. Yeah. Even hotel, hotel? Well,

Caleb Roth  
even after our last podcast, we just talked for 90 minutes about life and ideas. And my wife was like, didn't you just talk to David? I'm like, Yeah, but there's more stuff to talk about.

David Chung  
I really wonder like, what sort of dynamic change or like, what goes into like those couch friends? Versus I guess, like the friends that you can take on in more sparse doses? Do you think it's like a personality compatibility? Or do you have any thoughts on that? Meagan? Yeah,

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, you know, I think it comes down to the flow of your kind of conversation, right? There's a lot of different topics. And so I find that when I'm having conversations, like, I like to bring up articles I read or Instagram things I stopped, right. Like, I'm always like, curious about things. And so for some friends, it's like, you know, you, you kind of reach a dead end at a certain point that, like, there's only so many things you can talk about. And then it's like, Okay, that's it, versus like, you talked about your friendship with Caleb, when there's no shortage of things to talk about. And you can just go on and on and bring up different topics. And it flows in in such a way that it doesn't feel as draining in a sense. And so I wonder if there's an interest level, curiosity level that comes with those friends that are the couch friends like that, you know, I really like to talk about X, Y, and Z topic, and so does this friend and so therefore, we're able to connect better but then I think the idea of like a couch friend is someone who is able to see you for who you really are and that you feel comfortable to show up in sweatpants and just have a conversation. It doesn't need to be this elaborate plan dinner and going out and, and all of that. So I think once you reach a certain level of vulnerability, maybe that's when that guard maybe comes down.

David Chung  
I really like what you said about curiosity, because I think that's like one common thing that Caleb and I have. Besides that in business, I don't know if we have that much in common.

Caleb Roth  
I think that's enough, though!

David Chung  
Yeah, I really do and just like being able to go into these different like rabbit holes of different ideas and just like continue talking, I think the other thing too is like I have immense respect for Caleb. And I would imagine Caleb has respect for me and my ideas and just like, even if we have differing views, just being able to put my own ideas and opinions to the side, and listen to what Caleb has to say, and just like truly coming from a curious place, as opposed to, I mean, there are a lot of friendships, where, you know, I find myself hard to sort of remove my own ideas and prejudices from that conversation. And it definitely leads to more authentic communication, when you are able to reach that, I don't know if it's a vulnerable state or just like, state of respect, where you are able to sort of sidebar, your own ideas. David,

Meagan Allers  
David, I love what you're bringing up. And it reminds me of this idea of like a weak tie as well. And so like, you know, we there's all those studies of like, you are like your five closest friends, and like, that's who you are. And I read this book called The defining decade making the most of like, of life in your 20s by mag J and was one whole chapter on weak ties, and how like, you don't want to always surround yourself with people who think like you and act like you, because then you're, you know, in an echo chamber, and so it encouraged you like, who are those people in your life that maybe aren't like you who are on more of like the fringes? And how can you like turn a weak tie, and they're the people who are going to teach you something new are going to challenge you and who are going to, like, help you to grow in different ways. And so I know, like, especially in the past couple years, I've thought about like, who are those weak ties for me? And like, what can I like learn from them? And like having that curiosity mindset and doesn't mean you agree on everything, but there's like a mutual respect there that you're able to share openly and listen to what they have to say as well. That's been a cool, I like the weak ties analogy.

Caleb Roth  
Alright, Meagan, I've got a riddle for you or a conundrum we'd like to solve together. So you mentioned the dinner meetings and that's that's an incredible way to do it. But it also takes a I would imagine a tremendous amount of bravery that's not for everybody to set up and put themselves out there and deal with details and everything. David and I used to be booksellers David still is I'm I'm a wannabe bookseller sold the business. But we had kind of close connections all over the country, fellow booksellers that were technically our competitors. But we all made each other better. And we got to gripe about how hard it was to sell on Amazon and some of the challenges we had. And we both built again, we're connecters, but we built really strong friendships all over the country. And sometimes we have the luxury to show up in person at an industry event or a conference or just fly out and see a customer or friends. How have you seen just good examples? We can use Marco Polo? If it makes sense? Or just what are other best practices and habits to build that dinner group but in a remote setting? Do you have any kind of cool unique cases where you could do that? Where you can say, hey, here's these six people or eight people that I really want to get closer to, and we don't live in the same geographical area? How do we solve this problem?

Meagan Allers  
I've seen people do like mastermind stuff on Marco Polo in groups, and so the max group size is about 200. But I think the sweet spot is again, that like six to eight. And I, there's been multiple sightings where I've been to like a conscious leadership retreat. And after the fact, the person's like, Hey, we're all gonna get in this Marco Polo chat to continue the conversation. And so that's been a powerful way to introduce it. And I think if the leader like tees it up, like what is the intention of this, and maybe it's like a short term thing that you want to get people on board for or, or just kind of let it run its course. But you know, there's one story that comes to mind, this guy, Wes, was looking for a connection, and he just put something out on his Instagram, like, Hey, I'm just looking for, you know, people to get to know, in a deeper way. And I think he was really surprised with the number of people who actually responded and wanted to connect. And so like, he then put them in this Marco Polo group that they were able to, like, share their stories. And I think a big thing with that group connection to Caleb is like, you almost want to facilitate the conversations, but like, you don't need to be a part of it all the time. Like you want them to like form. And so what's been cool is that like when you put people in this group that they're then able to be like, let me like Solo Polo. Let me reach out one on one on the side. And like, let's chat more about this. So they're able to build their own relationships. And you as the facilitator don't need to, like, always be facilitating.

Caleb Roth  
Do you have groups that offer the do paid groups through Marco Polo is that even an option where if I wanted to build a mastermind around book selling, I could create a group and people would pay to be part of it?

Meagan Allers  
So people do it on their own, which has been like very interesting learning. There's a number of different people who are like sober curious communities, and they've got 21 day challenges and you've signed up for their program, and maybe they're gonna facilitate on Zoom, but they also have these Marco Polo groups, where they're putting these strangers into groups, and people are forming these amazing relationships. I've done it so I run an ambassador program and there's a couple hundred individuals and I'm gonna share cast with them where I'm the only one able to reach out to all of them. And their responses come back to me individually. And they all wanted to meet each other. And I'm like, I can't put 200 people in a group, that will not work. So I had them fill out like a feedback form. And I was like, what kind of people you want. And we had a business owners group, a coaching group, a stay at home mom group, a vegan group and an athletic group. And then I like, put them in groups and let them go. And what was really cool is that people have formed these amazing friendships having never met, being across the country from one another.

Caleb Roth  
You mentioned the broadcast group. So that's an option where you can set people up within a group and only you have the power to kind of bulk transmit everything out to them?

Meagan Allers  
Yep. And so some people aren't using that, like, they'll have Patreon tiers. And then they'll say, like, oh, as part of this, you can join my share cast, but like the more behind the scenes, kind of video content, and then interact as well.

Caleb Roth  
David, we were talking this afternoon about you, we were kind of trying to scope out what's our sphere of influence that we would love to have, you know, think through it's morbid, but at your funeral, would you prefer to have a thousand people that come in and say man, Meagan was just incredible, and she really impacted my life. Would you rather just have five people that were like, man, Meagan gave me everything. And I knew that if I was in prison, she was going to come after me, or is there some kind of sweet spot in between? And I didn't I didn't have a good answer to that. I think David, you said your your sweet spot you think is around 50 people?

David Chung  
Yeah, I think 50 people, but have you guys ever seen the movie Big Fish? No, no, okay. It's a great movie. But it's just like, pretty much in a nutshell, this, this guy dies, and his son's attending the funeral. And he sees all these different characters coming in. And they just represent different stories and different memories from his father's life. And like, I think he was in a circus. And he was like, yeah, just like, varying, like, degree of life experiences. It's a really cool movie. But I think it'd be really cool to have 50 people, but to have those 50 people represent, like, such different aspects of my life. Like from business to like, Caleb and I climbed Kilimanjaro last year. And so it'd be it'd be really cool to have like, Christa and KJ, like, at my funeral, you know, if we got really close to them, and just like being able to share all these different stories that in sum, represented who I was, well, it's sort of weird talking like future past tense, but like, so yeah, I mean, like, I don't know where we're going with this, Caleb, but like, Yeah, I think 50 people is sort of the sweet spot for me.

Caleb Roth  
Well, then. So I think through those 50 people, you're going to have your five really close friends, you'll have your family members, you'll have your business community. And I know David, you are, you're the consummate people person. And you are always seeking to connect and try and provide even more value. And I know you've got kind of a tight inner group where you fly out work on their book business and look at their warehouse and work with the people. And I just think like, whether whether you want to make money off it or not, I just I see that type of a small group, where you're just sharing behind the scenes stuff with a core group, whether they pay you or whether it's just people that you care about and want to keep, you know, close and stay connected relationally I can see that working really well for you. Because that video component is is very intimate. And again, not trying to make it sound like an ad for Marco Polo. But here we are.

Meagan Allers  
I've just said to David hearing your thing. I'm in the midst of wedding planning right now. And so you make that invite list and, and to see the different people from my life from back in the high school days, college days, like when I lived in different places work different places, like come together, it feels very special. And I feel like the culmination of where you were at life with them and the memories you shared and like those experiences, it's it's really powerful, like friendships are just like so important to us. And it's been really I'm excited to have all these people in like one place that I'll get to be there for.

Caleb Roth  
last David, he froze. He's actually planning a wedding right now as well. So he's in the in the very same boat when he eventually pops back online with us here. Well, we'll give him just a minute and I can continue this if he if he's unable to join us. We'll see if he jumps back in here. Let's back in. Oh, yeah, we got this marked. We'll we'll edit it out. No big deal. Okay, when when? Out of curiosity, when was Marco Polo started? Yeah,

Meagan Allers  
so it was started in 2016. So back when you know sending videos wasn't really a thing I think like sending like MMS texts on phones was like really challenging. And so the early days it was like a lot of people talking about the iPhone to Android difficulty. So that was a big piece of it.

Caleb Roth  
Yeah, and I know WhatsApp is has solved that in some ways but it also then just becomes a you know, it's too much connection as well. Yeah, that tech was certainly ahead of its time and you said you've been there eight years which you've probably been there since the beginning are very, very near it.

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, very close. I was like employee number eight like our first like non engineer and so I feel so lucky because I feel like me personally like being that connector, and then the role I get to play At the company and how it's kind of evolved, like, I get to be so curious of like our users and like, how they're using it and like hear their stories on how it's impacting their relationships and like, cultivate this community. So it's been awesome. I've so loved it, and then getting to like, actually use the product and like, have it really impact my own relationships. So I feel very blessed to have been, like you said, at a startup for like eight years, it's, it's rare.

Caleb Roth  
Well, it's also rare when you actually enjoy the product of the company that you work for. I'm toying with this right now. I love golf. It's my hobby. And I'd love to try and figure out a way to turn it into a job. But I worry that I will run the risk of ruining my hobby, if that becomes a reality. So those are those are some considerations. But if you enjoy what you do, and you get to, you know, physically use it, and you understand it, that certainly helps as well. Well, David dove out for a minute looks like he's back with us now, which is great.

David Chung  
We got like a foot of snow in Denver. And I think our internet is acting up because of that. And

Caleb Roth  
we were just talking a bit about the history of Marco Polo. And Meagan said she was like employee number eight. She's been there very nearly since the beginning.

David Chung  
Meagan, you mentioned on our pre call that you were the first non technical hire. Right? Yeah. So just like, so let me ask you this. Like, what? I'm not sure if you guys talked about this, what position were you hired for again?

Meagan Allers  
So the actual job title was "Super Awesome". And I was leading customers

Caleb Roth  
How were you qualified for that? How do you prove it?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, right? It's a fun title. But I was leading the customer support team and being the right hand to our founder and getting to plan our company retreats. So we're a totally remote team. So I've always kind of worked remote. And my background is in education. So I was a teacher. In the past, I worked at higher education on college campuses, doing student activities and running orientations. And so there's this thing of like other duties as assigned and like being up for new challenges and stuff. And so I was really drawn to the purpose of the company, the founders brought me How are just amazing in their vision. And I've loved that I've gotten to grow and be creative and be challenged and like take on new things over the years. It's really evolved.

Caleb Roth  
And you mentioned you manage the ambassadors. So talking about relational habits, you're literally living that out every day in real life, can you share some of the like best practices in terms of keeping them engaged? Not necessarily on the business side, but how do you think through that from a friend and a relational standpoint, too?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, so I think with the ambassador program, like there are Maco Polo superfans, like they've been impacted by using the app for their own relationships, and they have these stories, and it's just been so powerful to connect with them. And honestly, to have a product as a way I can connect with them in such a personal way. So you know, I'll pop on, you know, once a week and give an update on what's going on, and I hear back from them and how they're being impacted by things. And I would say the big surprise in it is that they really wanted to connect with each other. And so this idea of putting a group of strangers into groups, I, I found that we added like a moderator concept into it, right. So that like group facilitator, and so I actually we do a moderator training with them. And we have a guide now on like, okay, like, here's how you can keep the conversation going. And here's how you, you know, no one's responding, Solo Polo them and make sure they feel included into the group. And so that's been a cool evolution to see how that's gone.

David Chung  
I love different little phrases that you can come up with, like, Solo Polo, that's so cool.

Meagan Allers  
That was definitely learned from our community, right? They give us all these great insights.

David Chung  
That's awesome. Well, as we start to wind down this episode, you know, we talked about a number of different habits that listeners could apply to their everyday life, everything from setting cadences to communication and relationships, to setting up dinner parties, or whatever parties, you know, whatever social activities in order to connect with new people and spark these new connections. I guess from your experience and your perspective, what are maybe some of the challenges that people might face as they implement? You know, look at implementing these habits into their everyday life?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, I think that life get comes in the way right, something comes out, we get busy, there's a work meeting, there's something going on. And so I think creating different ways to bring you back to that goal, right? I think it's like most New Year's Resolutions fail by like the middle of January or something like that. So if you can have that like monthly reminder of like up Did I check in with my friends this month? Or like who haven't I talked to like that could be helpful in case things just get busy in life. I also think you may. We talked about using different questions to kind of go deeper in conversations as well. And so I think that you might feel challenged at first with that, or someone might be like, Why are you asking me that? And so I Coming back to like, setting the stage like, hey, like, I'd love to get to know you better. I'd love to get like deeper in our relationship like, Would you like let's let's do some questions that are more out of the blue and aren't like, what's the weather what's going on with this, but you may get some pushback from some friends. We're like, Oh, this is outside my comfort zone on this. But I think laying that groundwork of like, hey, I want to have a closer relationship with you is a great place to start.

David Chung  
And that's beautifully put. And for those who are able to sort of overcome those challenges or obstacles, what's the upside of implementing these habits into your life?

Meagan Allers  
Oh, my gosh, I would say like having just like a hype circle of people who can support you, I know that for me, it's turned out, you know, I've probably got five or six close friends that I can reach out to at any point. And I know that like, they're, they're up to date on what's going on with my life. They've got great feedback, they deeply know me and so you know, they're able to reflect back like, you know, ways I've grown, they're able to see things and highlight things that I may overlook or take for granted about my like strengths or my personality. And it's just been really rewarding to you know, water those friendships and how they they're able to be there for me and support me.

David Chung  
Meagan, this has been an incredibly enlightening conversation and enjoyable for those who want to learn more about Marco Polo and, you know, reach out to you what are some great ways to connect with you?

Meagan Allers  
Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Meagan Allers would love to connect and then with Marco Polo, you can check it out in the App Store or Google Play Store, search Marco Polo app, or online at marcopolo.me. It's been so great. Thank you both for having me. This has been a great conversation.

David Chung  
Thank you.

Caleb Roth  
Thanks so much for coming on.

David Chung  
And with that, we'll talk next time.